Albleton Live 10 overpriced?

[SLiC]

The value of an update is not connected to how often the updates are published, it is purely based on the content you get for the money.

Not the content you get, the content you're going to use. While it's nice to get options, why pay a lot of money for stuff you might never use?

Yes, I agree, the content that is relevant to you.

Modulators and CV (and even midi slave and Ableton link) were big for me as I am a hardware guy, I have used the unified modulation system on about everything I have done since it came out. Whilst there are a ton of small workflow improvements in a Live 10 there is nothing realy new that i would use.

[david.beholder]

Oh, and it is not $200 once in 4 years... much of the development of Live in those 4 years has surrounded Push... so include the cost of Push in that...

I have no Push therefore argument is not working from begining. Also Bitwig has no hardware bundle/integration, so it's hard to compare.

and the Live 10 suite upgrade from Live 9 suite is $300 with the intro discount at $240

I've seen $200 in the morning on my account. I might be wrong/misread tho.

[paulbreeze]

249 with 20% discount so 199

[phreaque]

BTW, Push will be the same right? Or there will be also another model?

[thecontrolcentre]

Looks like the upgrades are aimed at expanding Push2 functionality, so I don't expect a new version too soon.

[david.beholder]

it just isn’t updated as often as other DAWs.

I disagree. Btw their rns are publically available https://www.ableton.com/en/help/article ... ase-notes/

[jacqueslacouth]

I see this a lot....Does windows now run on a piece of paper or something? You still need a computer to run a Windows based DAW....sure, Macs are on the pricey side, but there are plenty of equally priced PCs (or dongles if you prefer)

But an equally priced PC will have like twice the power, or more - or you can buy an equally spec'ed PC for half the price (or less)... and be able to expand it, or exchange the CPU, in a couple of years, and have it "updated" for a small fraction of the price.

No argument here on that, because that is actually a truth. Personally, I am very close to jumping ship from the Apple platform after 11 years for that very reason.

The dongle thing kind of irks me as rather stupid as there is plenty os platform specific software on all sides. So what if Apple don't want to develop their software for other platforms. I wonder if Microsoft would develop for Mac OS should they ever get into this game, probably not, but honestly, who cares? It doesn't really matter in the end as both provide excellent tools for making music.

[jacqueslacouth]

It's 2017 but you still have windows vs mac holy war in your mind.

Actually, not! I'm pretty close to going back to a windows machine myself, I just find the dongle reference stupid. There is plenty of software out there that runs on one platform only. It makes sense, as the owners of Logic, Apple would not be bothered developing their software for competitive platforms. It kind of demonstrates their self-confidence (some might say complete arrogance)

[SLiC]

it just isn’t updated as often as other DAWs.

I disagree. Btw their rns are publically available https://www.ableton.com/en/help/article ... ase-notes/

I was referring to major new feature updates. Live had been great at bug fixes and there have been a lot of updates for Push, but no realy big change in 4 years (and to be honest 8 suite to 9 suite didn’t add a lot for me) I am talking about ‘invention’ cool new stuff, game changers...it’s pretty much just been Push.

[Robmobius]

I see this a lot....Does windows now run on a piece of paper or something? You still need a computer to run a Windows based DAW....sure, Macs are on the pricey side, but there are plenty of equally priced PCs (or dongles if you prefer)

Most of daws run on both Win and Mac, some also run on Linux. Logic is the only major daw that gives NO CHOICE of platform. That's why it requires a dongle.

It's 2017 but you still have windows vs mac holy war in your mind.

Yeah, but it's not a dongle for me is it tho'? Anyway, is this not an Ableton thread?

[pdxindy]

LOL I know you are serious but that is simply ridiculous. And even if so.. you got an excellent controller and tight integration.

I personally think Bitwig value proposition is harder to swallow, but if it ig good and makes your music making happy I can't argue against that. Nevertheless BW is now more expensive if you want to stay up to date, with less content (not everyone cares I know) and still behind in some stuff (Audio stretching).

I do envy BW modulation system (even if max is more integrated it doesn't provide as nice GUI as BW) and hybrid tracks.

It's not ridiculous... a number of people have exclaimed that Live is a good deal because there have been 4 years of free updates... but much of that is meaningless if you have not also purchased some expensive hardware. If you do not have Push, then the past 5-6 years have been pretty freakin sparse as far as core Live development.

Now with Live 10...

First thing they mention on the intro page on their site... the new devices. All of which I already have covered with plugins and is not core functionality.

Next on the list is Capture (retroactive record) - cool feature and would be glad to have it.

Next Editing Multiple Midi Clips - Good addition... but looks kinda like a first step compared to the multi-clip editing in Bitwig. Bitwig you can select a bunch of clips and they all open in the editor where you can show/hide and lock/unlock individual clips. You can also select which of the clips you can paste into and display them in track or clip view. The multi-clip editing in Live 10 does not have that functionality.

Next is editing workflow in arrangement - looks like a solid set of workflow enhancements

Groups in Groups... good job - Note Chasing... nice

Finally, M4L integration with claimed CPU and stability improvements - that could be significant and a big plus for Live users.

That is it for 4-5 years since the last major release. Not much really new in the core application like MPE support, Hybrid tracks, Plugin sandboxing, etc. Nothing I would call particularly fresh or unexpectedly innovative.

Nothing wrong with Ableton deciding that Live is a mature product and mostly doing add-ons, content and Push integration. If you are fundamentally happy with Live as is, this seems like a solid but not spectacular step. Were that me, I would likely upgrade...

Even if Bitwig is more expensive, I get more of what I want for that expense. Bitwig is still new enough that the devs are still eager to innovate. The Bitwig modulation system is fresh. The integration with CV eurorack hardware is also. I am more interested in innovative core functionality than in content and add-ons so Bitwig is a better deal to me.

I would have been happy to pay more to Ableton over the past 4-5 years if it meant they developed the core features that interested me. Turns out Bitwig is what I had wanted Live to be.

[pdxindy]

249 with 20% discount so 199

$300 with 20% discount is $240 - that is what it says in my user account

[Robmobius]

249 with 20% discount so 199

$300 with 20% discount is $240 - that is what it says in my user account

it's 199euro and $240.

[Nicodps]

It may be a bit expensive... but well...

"Dear Santa..."

[.jon]

Nothing wrong with Ableton deciding that Live is a mature product and mostly doing add-ons, content and Push integration. If you are fundamentally happy with Live as is, this seems like a solid but not spectacular step. Were that me, I would likely upgrade...

I think this pretty much is the case with the gigantic user base Ableton has. It's been mature since many versions back, the users have been using it for so long it's second nature to them. Many musicians aren't that focused on features or or even like the programs re-inventing themselves- DAW is just a means to an end, not the end itself. Many here on KVR are perhaps more interested in software features and following software development than rest of the user base. This is reflected in the vast amount of tutorials for Live, they aren't so much about the program itself as they are about actual music production. This is also imo a big factor in their success.

Live is a simple DAW compared to most others, possibly all others. This results in a certain clarity and a very streamlined workflow. I for one, coming from Reaper, really value this simplicity of everything in Live, yet it has everything I need. The new features are just nice things to have (for me the browser tag system is the highlight, it allows me to combine VSTs, VST presets (Reaktor ensembles) and device chains in a favourite folder), but I wasn't really missing anything important. The GUI refresh looks great.

That said, the omission of MPE leaves me kinda baffled. While MPE controllers are still rare and expensive, I'm certain they will get very popular in the future when they get to sub 500e prices. I'll definitely grab one once the big mass producers launch their versions.