Bargain Center: discussion, gossip, etc.

[Fleer]

Not into phrases myself, actually. I prefer playing these instruments directly from my keyboard. But I do love some of Sonokinetic's instruments. And that Ostinato we got last year is the best gift ever.

[Fleer]

4) Subscription plan. Any company with a subscription plan gets an automatic demerit, no exceptions.

Meh - go away old man (or woman). It's the future - bring it on. I would easily trade the 5-10K I've spent with certain individual companies, for a $25 / month subscription for every product that company has, all upgrades / updates, and access to all new products, and ability to just unsubscribe when I no longer use their products.

Why on earth am I spending $1000 on a string library knowing that 1) I may not really like it after 2 or 3 months 2) just blew what would have cost $300 for a year for every product that company has instead of the single library I got. That probably can't be resold. That probably doesn't cover future updates. That may be discontinued in a year or 2. Will probably be bettered by another product in a year or two.

Who here wouldn't opt for every single Spitfire library if they did a $50 a month subscription? That's $600 a year for $10,000+ in content. It's a complete no-brainer. It would be the cost of basically one of their libraries per year, for their ENTIRE catalog. What is wrong in your head that this is a problem? Ha. By the time you even paid enough in subscriptions to counter what you would have paid to buy the individual libraries you did use (or want), it would be years down the road, when the libraries are obsolete anyway, and you would have been upgrading / buying new ones. Hell - I've bought about $4K worth of their products over the last couple years. A few of them I've already started using less and less...and am now looking to purchase some newer releases. If I had had a $50 subscription option at the beginning, I would have only spent about $1500 at this point, and wouldn't have to be budgeting for what to get next.

Bring on subscriptions! As someone who invests about $10K a year in libraries already, having a couple grand in various subscriptioins per year...allowing me access to way more content...my bank will thank you.

Now there's the elephant in the room. Interesting reasoning.
Personally, not ready for subscriptions. Yet. Probably because of an "old" mindset, based on the principle of buying, keeping or eventually reselling. But that mindset indeed is primarily linked to physical objects. Objects you can cherish like old cars, old records, old instruments, all with physical dimensions and a physical relationship with their owner?
Maybe plugins, because of their virtual existence as far as physicality is concerned, force us to rethink this relationship. Maybe, just maybe, subscriptions belong to the plugin world because of its non-physical existence. I'm ready to rethink this, even when I'm not yet ready to subscribe.

[ghettosynth]

Not into phrases myself, actually. I prefer playing these instruments directly from my keyboard. But I do love some of Sonokinetic's instruments. And that Ostinato we got last year is the best gift ever.

I haven't used it much but it did sound good and I thought that it was a pretty generous promo. I hope that it worked well for them so that they do something similar this year.

[dzilizzi]

4) Subscription plan. Any company with a subscription plan gets an automatic demerit, no exceptions.

Meh - go away old man (or woman). It's the future - bring it on. I would easily trade the 5-10K I've spent with certain individual companies, for a $25 / month subscription for every product that company has, all upgrades / updates, and access to all new products, and ability to just unsubscribe when I no longer use their products.

Why on earth am I spending $1000 on a string library knowing that 1) I may not really like it after 2 or 3 months 2) just blew what would have cost $300 for a year for every product that company has instead of the single library I got. That probably can't be resold. That probably doesn't cover future updates. That may be discontinued in a year or 2. Will probably be bettered by another product in a year or two.

Who here wouldn't opt for every single Spitfire library if they did a $50 a month subscription? That's $600 a year for $10,000+ in content. It's a complete no-brainer. It would be the cost of basically one of their libraries per year, for their ENTIRE catalog. What is wrong in your head that this is a problem? Ha. By the time you even paid enough in subscriptions to counter what you would have paid to buy the individual libraries you did use (or want), it would be years down the road, when the libraries are obsolete anyway, and you would have been upgrading / buying new ones. Hell - I've bought about $4K worth of their products over the last couple years. A few of them I've already started using less and less...and am now looking to purchase some newer releases. If I had had a $50 subscription option at the beginning, I would have only spent about $1500 at this point, and wouldn't have to be budgeting for what to get next.

Bring on subscriptions! As someone who invests about $10K a year in libraries already, having a couple grand in various subscriptioins per year...allowing me access to way more content...my bank will thank you.

Not to start an argument, but when you don't make money on your music, paying a monthly subscription is just money down the drain. The only one I think isn't bad is EW because you don't have to sign up for a year, if I remember correctly. Just when you need it and there is no real penalty. I like buying stuff I can keep. I'm still using things I bought 5 or more years ago. I don't upgrade just because there is a new version. It does help that I am PC and older programs still work for years without a problem. What I do like about Slate is they give you the option of buying or subscription. Unlike Adobe. Not that I use it for music. But there should always be a choice.

And? If I made money and could charge people for the subscription fee? It totally makes sense.

[kitekrazy]

The Ableton Knowledge Base insists that no payment upfront is needed:

https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/artic ... Order-FAQ-

Does anyone know if the preorder upgrade to Ableton 10 requires payment upfront or is the money paid only when it finally becomes available?

No money upfront needed. You pay when it becomes available.

I tried to do it, but the entire transaction looked like it was going to charge me the full price. Made it all the way to the PayPal screen before I bailed.

Same here. I think someone is wrong.

Thanks for the info. I'm still debating on waiting for a vendor to offer a better deal.

[ghettosynth]

4) Subscription plan. Any company with a subscription plan gets an automatic demerit, no exceptions.

Meh - go away old man (or woman). It's the future - bring it on. I would easily trade the 5-10K I've spent with certain individual companies, for a $25 / month subscription for every product that company has, all upgrades / updates, and access to all new products, and ability to just unsubscribe when I no longer use their products.

Why on earth am I spending $1000 on a string library knowing that 1) I may not really like it after 2 or 3 months 2) just blew what would have cost $300 for a year for every product that company has instead of the single library I got. That probably can't be resold. That probably doesn't cover future updates. That may be discontinued in a year or 2. Will probably be bettered by another product in a year or two.

Who here wouldn't opt for every single Spitfire library if they did a $50 a month subscription? That's $600 a year for $10,000+ in content. It's a complete no-brainer. It would be the cost of basically one of their libraries per year, for their ENTIRE catalog. What is wrong in your head that this is a problem? Ha. By the time you even paid enough in subscriptions to counter what you would have paid to buy the individual libraries you did use (or want), it would be years down the road, when the libraries are obsolete anyway, and you would have been upgrading / buying new ones. Hell - I've bought about $4K worth of their products over the last couple years. A few of them I've already started using less and less...and am now looking to purchase some newer releases. If I had had a $50 subscription option at the beginning, I would have only spent about $1500 at this point, and wouldn't have to be budgeting for what to get next.

Bring on subscriptions! As someone who invests about $10K a year in libraries already, having a couple grand in various subscriptioins per year...allowing me access to way more content...my bank will thank you.

Now there's the elephant in the room. Interesting reasoning.
Personally, not ready for subscriptions. Yet. Probably because of an "old" mindset, based on the principle of buying, keeping or eventually reselling. But that mindset indeed is primarily linked to physical objects. Objects you can cherish like old cars, old records, old instruments, all with physical dimensions and a physical relationship with their owner?
Maybe plugins, because of their virtual existence as far as physicality is concerned, force us to rethink this relationship. Maybe, just maybe, subscriptions belong to the plugin world because of its non-physical existence. I'm ready to rethink this, even when I'm not yet ready to subscribe.

His reasoning is naive. There's nothing wrong with renting vs owning in certain instances. It's done all the time in industry with software and it can make sense to a business. But that $10000 "worth of product" isn't actually worth $10000 and that's where this nonsense breaks down and just reveals itself to be a different form of consumer hoarding.

It's not about being young or old, it's about being able to do math and not being stupid. For subscriptions to make sense in the plugin market they will have to be much much cheaper. $15 a month for Slate sounds like a bargain until you realize that two years of subscriptions will get you Waves Horizon right now. I have 30 plugins in my PA account as of this moment, not counting free plugins and repeat licenses used to get a bigger discount. The retail value is probably about $2000 give or take, but, I only get $25 coupons, you know why? Because I've only spent about $200 or so with them.

That's about right, on average. Plugins are worth about 10% of the retail price to someone who doesn't NEED them as tools to get a job done. Once you have some tools, the marginal value of new tools that are similar starts to diminish.

Many, if not most of us, here are hobbyists or part timers. We started out with a few tools, some free tools, we buy things on sale and we build up a library. It isn't need really that drives new purchases, it's often just a desire that is frequently driven by sales. "Yes, that sounds like it would be fun to play with and it's on a super sale." So, you have to be aware of how much you spend over the years. Which is why I'm really glad that software is so good now because there's no way that I long for the everything in hardware days.

I'm actually not that critical of Adobe's model even though it pisses people off because they really have had the market cornered.

Similarly, I think that East/West's composer bundle would make sense for a lot of people, even me if I were so inclined, I'm not. But, let's be clear, I'd still give them the demerit because that demerit is with respect to who I want to BUY from and if you're flirting with subscriptions then you're likely to be less interested in sales. If you're not interested in sales and you aren't both, so good that the competition isn't really close, AND something that I'm really interested in, then I'll just get my stuff from someone who does do sales.

But Slate, or Waves, or PA, or anyone who creates basically some version of the same tools that everyone else makes, GTFOH. Nobody needs your magic sauce, the other magic sauce gets the job done as well, modulo bias.

You can live in the future if you wish, but the future isn't now, the now is now and we have YEARS if not DECADES to go before the applecart is upset. I've done the math, subscriptions are not a good choice if, like most of us, you already have tools. If you don't have tools then it will only take a few years of paying for that subscription before you start losing. They rely on selling you the sizzle, but IMNSHO, the steak to go with that sizzle in this industry is far less common than most seem to think.

[Rational]

Very well said Ghetto. Exactly.

This is why renters never become wealthy. And why those who invest in real estate do. It's accummulation of wealth over time vs pissing it away. After years of renting (or leasing) you don't own anything. The money is gone. Gone.

You can debate the value of the item before, during and after, but that is on you to choose wisely what you're purchasing or renting and if the value is there. I believe renting and leasing works best or only for businesses who recoup these costs as COGS. And it gives them benefits they don't get by purchasing, like free maintenance on vehicles, etc.

Like Ghetto says, if you run the numbers on a spreadsheet, you always lose over time in the long run with renting. I think that's a 'no-brainer'.

It can work though if you only need a quick resource for a month or two for a project perhaps. Especially if that item is very expensive and you'll never use it again.

And I do use my stuff for years and years afterwards. Even plugins that are long in the tooth. So for me, I prefer to buy over time at low prices.

[ghettosynth]

So I haven't updated my spreadsheet in a while but I thought that it might be interesting to share an actual datapoint. My PA purchases are actually at 6.34% of retail value.

That is, a plugin with a retail price of $199 is in fact worth about $12 to me and, on average, that's what I paid for it.

Now, go redo that subscription math with actual plugin value to someone who doesn't need any vendor's particular plugin today and you will get a very different story.

Shit, let's do the math in real time. There might be a few more plugins in the bundle at this point, but, whatever, let's take the numbers from this article that thinks Slate is "crazy" value.

https://sonicscoop.com/2017/02/23/best- ... d-monthly/

The value here is probably among the best out there: To purchase all of the plugins currently in the bundle, it would run you $1,771. Stack that against $14.99 a month, and it would take you nearly 10 years to to pay out that much for the plugins—and that’s not including the new plugins that are being added throughout the process.

OMG! So cray cray, so much value!

So at $15/month it would take ten years to pay the full retail price of Slate at $1771 and I'm sure that if you can't do math, that sounds delicious. But, PA and Waves both make comparable tools, as do other manufacturers.

So, if we're generous and say that slate is worth 10% of retail on average, then that's just under a year to pay of the $178 in actual value. At 20% it's just under two ears. Would I pay that, maybe, my current perception is that they're worth about $8 to $10/plugin, but that's seat of the pants, I thought that my PA ratio was higher than it actually is, so I might have to adjust downward, but, whatever, let's go with that because you can see that I said that right here in this thread. So VTC is three plugins for $179. 10% is $18, 20% is $36. So, at my current seat of the pants valuation I would pay 10%, but not 20%. That feels about right, there's a lot of cruft in my PA account that drives that percentage down.

Let's say 15% then, or $27. Then 15% of the full value is about $266 give or take and divided by $15 I would be better off buying after renting for just eighteen months. Moreover, that's using my Slate valuation of 15%. Since I can get plugins for less, e.g. PA and Waves, I would really have to like Slate's plugins to pay 15% and if I get similar tools from other vendors at 5% to 10% then I'm better off buying after just six months to one year.

What does Slate say that they're worth if one buys their products opportunistically? Well, VTC was on sale for $49 so that's 28% of the retail price, less than double my valuation.

The problem comes from thinking in terms of one vendor when it's convenient for the argument. If Slate doesn't want to put a limiter on sale, then Waves, or Softube, or PA will. So if you buy opportunistically, Slate's numbers are pure nonsense.

[Rational]

So, on the Slate thing...

I got another reply. They're kinda giving me an offer. But it's not making sense to me. So I'm having to ask for clarification. Which it looks like it will take yet another day to hear back because of the time difference.

Update: Well, I asked him to get back to me quickly so I wouldn't lose a day and he did get right back to me to his credit a few minutes ago. But it sounds like he is offering me just the Everything bundle for the BF price... If I'm understanding correctly, ah no. That's not what the original deal was. I was purchasing FG-Stress to OWN it and get the everything bundle and tuts for free.

I think right now if I understand correctly, he wants me to get the refund from JRR and buy the everything bundle at a slight discount... smh. So I've clarified that I don't rent plugins. I'm only interested in the original offer. And why does JRR have to suffer here for Slate's lack of good clarification on the terms of the offer within their email marketing and website during the offer?

No reply back as yet. Not sure if he's checking or this will take another day. I will say that this is getting comical at this point. Not even sure I want it anymore after having to bother trying so hard to purchase a company's product.

Note to companies out there reading this: Operational excellence matters. Don't make your customers suffer.

The customer is the driver in these two examples:
Operational average seen at most companies: = Torturing customers.
Operational Excellence: World class service = 2 second pit stop.

[Obvious561]

I got Kirk Hunter Concert Brass 2 in a massive group-buy a while ago. I still like it very much. It's very useful and the sounds are great. At the current price, you won't find another brass library that is sounding like this.

[Tappistry]

So I'm noticing a couple or three different FS threads for FabFilter plugins at the moment. I was under the impression that they were some of the holy grail products for mixing and mastering. I'm curious with what are people replacing them?

[SolarAxix]

So I haven't updated my spreadsheet in a while but I thought that it might be interesting to share an actual datapoint. My PA purchases are actually at 6.34% of retail value.

That is, a plugin with a retail price of $199 is in fact worth about $12 to me and, on average, that's what I paid for it.

....

I've bought many PA plugins when they are on sale along with doing my best to add as many "$19 bx_tuners" (and $9 specials before they stop allowing those deals to count) as possible along with vouchers and promo coupons to get the best discounts, but I can't claim that I've been able to get PA plugins down to an average of $12. I'm not questioning the validity of your statement, but I would be interested in knowing how you've been able to get it that low. Maybe I've not been patient enough to wait for the 80-90% deals like the recent elysia museq with an MSRP of $249 going for $29.

I will say that I do agree with your overall post. It's very rare that I buy something at full price. In most cases, I look for 60-70% off at a minimum. If I can get it at 85% off (15% of retail), that's even better. Also, in most subscription plans, you would get older plugins that you might not want or never use which can go on sale on a regular basis which also skew the big MSRP prices. (on the flip side, sometimes those older plugins are exactly what you are looking for )

What would be nice is a place to check historical prices on plugins/VSTs similar to what camelcamelcamel is doing for Amazon maybe with a bit more smarts to include multi product discounts in the picture as well (maybe a V2 feature).

°D

[Rational]

I’m really enjoying the level of discussion I’m seeing on here with the recent posts from you Solar and Ghetto. It’s nice to see polite rational discourse that is well argued.

I think I’ll start to put all my past purchases into a spreadsheet to help me both track them all, which are now over a thousand or more, as well as to determine the amounts invested.

This recent Slate deal has me questioning if even the time and effort in dealing with difficult vendors isn’t a bigger cost than they’re worth.

I have 65 or so guitars, 3 full studios full of gear here in Japan and at least 1000+ plugins. Perhaps it’s time to stop purchasing anything at all anymore. I certainly don’t ‘need’ anymore gear. Especially plugins. The fun in it is waning.

[ghettosynth]

So I haven't updated my spreadsheet in a while but I thought that it might be interesting to share an actual datapoint. My PA purchases are actually at 6.34% of retail value.

That is, a plugin with a retail price of $199 is in fact worth about $12 to me and, on average, that's what I paid for it.

....

I've bought many PA plugins when they are on sale along with doing my best to add as many "$19 bx_tuners" (and $9 specials before they stop allowing those deals to count) as possible along with vouchers and promo coupons to get the best discounts, but I can't claim that I've been able to get PA plugins down to an average of $12. I'm not questioning the validity of your statement, but I would be interested in knowing how you've been able to get it that low. Maybe I've not been patient enough to wait for the 80-90% deals like the recent elysia museq with an MSRP of $249 going for $29.

Like I said, there is some dead weight in there skewing the numbers down. The essence of it, however, was very careful buying and sticking to my value sense for plugins. BTW: that percentage excludes any repeats purchased just to drive the price down, I have a bunch of tuners, for example, but I only added the retail price of one to the retail total and did not assign any of the purchase value to any tuner past the first tuner. So, if I bought four new plugins for $40 and it took six tuners to get that price, that's not ten new plugins at $4 each, that's just four at a cost to me of $10 each. The retail cost is then the the retail cost of those four plugins. Probably what is having the most impact is that I have a large number of free plugins. That is, free plugins that are not normally free.

To be clear, my average per/plugin price is not $12, that's the average price for a plugin retailing at $199 as taken over all plugins. My average price, per plugin, is lower than that.

The thing about those $9 and $19 specials is that they caused me spend more at PA with than without and that's what's brought my average down.

I have a very strict policy that I adhere to in that I think that plugins are worth, on average $5 to $20 each across all vendors. There are rare exception and I consider those much more carefully than I do the inexpensive plugins. So that has affected my PA purchases because it's harder to get plugins down to that price without the multiple discounts. Bring them back and I'll spend more again.

Technology is the only thing that pushes anyone out of that range for me, period. By technology, I don't mean magical claims, I mean demonstrable technology.

I will say that I do agree with your overall post. It's very rare that I buy something at full price. In most cases, I look for 60-70% off at a minimum. If I can get it at 85% off (15% of retail), that's even better. Also, in most subscription plans, you would get older plugins that you might not want or never use which can go on sale on a regular basis which also skew the big MSRP prices. (on the flip side, sometimes those older plugins are exactly what you are looking for )

What would be nice is a place to check historical prices on plugins/VSTs similar to what camelcamelcamel is doing for Amazon maybe with a bit more smarts to include multi product discounts in the picture as well (maybe a V2 feature).

°D

Yeah, that would be useful, not that difficult either really, especially if you get user contribution. There used to be a used gear price list for vintage synths, I used that quite a bit to make sure that I didn't pay too much back in the day.

[Rational]

So I'm noticing a couple or three different FS threads for FabFilter plugins at the moment. I was under the impression that they were some of the holy grail products for mixing and mastering. I'm curious with what are people replacing them?

I thought many had gone to Ozone after ozone 5 had come out, no?