Tone2 I2 vs Trueno Analog

[Ingonator]

But if this is truly analog, how is a analog audio signal transmitted thru a USB interface? ..and how is that then processed by the sound card? There has to be D/A conversion involved somewhere I think

A true analog synth like my old Roland Juno 60 didn't have any A/D or D/A conversion in the signal flow. All signals from the oscillators, all thru to the amps were handled in the analog domain.

It's mentioned on the website: it has a 24-bit, 44.1kHz ADC. Not DAC, since the originating signal is analog, not digital.

And how could you use the included digital waveforms and wavetables that way? There must be a DAC to route those through the analog filter or not? Same with the digital envelopes, LFOs etc. that somehow must communicate with the analog parts.
AFAIK the noise source is digital too which needs a DAC to go through the analog filter too.

[EvilDragon]

Obviously, there are two parts to the oscillator: the VCO part, and digital waveform part.

But as far as audio output is concerned, that's an ADC, not a DAC.

[Ingonator]

Obviously, there are two parts to the oscillator: the VCO part, and digital waveform part.

But as far as audio output is concerned, that's an ADC, not a DAC.

But if the analog filter on the USB stick is used by both the VCOs and digital waves there needs to be a DAC too, same for the digital mod sources and the digital noise source.

A digtal mod source needs a DAC to communicate with the analog circuits via contol voltages.

[ATN69]

But if this is truly analog, how is a analog audio signal transmitted thru a USB interface? ..and how is that then processed by the sound card? There has to be D/A conversion involved somewhere I think

A true analog synth like my old Roland Juno 60 didn't have any A/D or D/A conversion in the signal flow. All signals from the oscillators, all thru to the amps were handled in the analog domain.

All analog synth become digital once you record them in to your DAW, this is just an analog synth with its own USB A to D built in.

That's a good point. So this is semi analog then

It's no more "semi analog" than any other analog synth that's ever been recorded and pressed onto a CD or digital file. That has to be something like 90% plus of all music ever produced with analog synths.

It's an an analog synth and a sound card combined into one product.

I get your point but the medium carrying the music should in all fairness be separated from the instrument, or else every trumpet, flute or saxophone would all of a sudden fall into the digital domain as well.

I simply wondered if this Trueno as a instrument is truly analog or not. They reason why I joked and called it semi analog is simply because it will not function as a stand alone instrument without any type of D/A conversion. If you plug this thing into a PA and play live you still need to run it thru a computer, sound card, etc. A true analog have no D/A conversion and if you plug it into a PA it's really analog all the way thru.

Below you can see what Bob Moog had to say about that,

https://www.moogmusic.com/legacy/conver ... generation

https://priceonomics.com/the-father-of- ... nthesizer/

[EvilDragon]

Obviously, there are two parts to the oscillator: the VCO part, and digital waveform part.

But as far as audio output is concerned, that's an ADC, not a DAC.

But if the analog filter on the USB stick is used by both the VCOs and digital waves there needs to be a DAC too, same for the digital mod sources and the digital noise source.

A digtal mod source needs a DAC to communicate with the analog circuits via contol voltages.

OBVIOUSLY, as I said in the post you quoted. Obviously. Nobody says there's no DAC there - I just said it's not a DAC at the output.

[Ingonator]

Obviously, there are two parts to the oscillator: the VCO part, and digital waveform part.

But as far as audio output is concerned, that's an ADC, not a DAC.

But if the analog filter on the USB stick is used by both the VCOs and digital waves there needs to be a DAC too, same for the digital mod sources and the digital noise source.

A digtal mod source needs a DAC to communicate with the analog circuits via contol voltages.

OBVIOUSLY, as I said in the post you quoted. Obviously. Nobody says there's no DAC there - I just said it's not a DAC at the output.

Not to forget the plugin must somehow send all the parameters from the editor to the analog circuits on the USB stick. Again a DAC must be inolved there. Actually, also as a lot of the processing is going on in the software and not in the hardware part, there must be a lot of DAC and ADC conversions going on to make this combination of analog circuits and software running properly.

With my real anlog synths like Bass Station 2 and Waldorf Pulse 2 and even in digital/analog hybrid synths i still got here like e.g. Korg DW-8000 and Ensoniq ESQ-1 only a ADC is necessary to import the audio into an audio interface and the DAW. All the processing that is part of the synth engine is going on within the hardware synth. If i add digital effects within in the DAW this is no further processing after there was alraedy a ADC from the hardware involved.It just stays in the digital domain then.

[AnX]

So just osc and filter are 'analog' not lfos and envs etc...looks very limited too.

[EvilDragon]

With my real anlog synths like Bass Station 2 and Waldorf Pulse 2 and even in digital/analog hybrid synths i still got here like e.g. Korg DW-8000 and Ensoniq ESQ-1 only a ADC is necessary to import the audio into an audio interface and the DAW. All the processing that is part of the synth engine is going on within the hardware synth. If i add digital effects within in the DAW this is no further processing after there was alraedy a ADC from the hardware involved.It just stays in the digital domain then.

Your Bass Station 2 and Pulse 2 also have DACs because they have presets - analog voltages have to be stored as digital values somehow. Obviously any synth that has digitally executed modulation has to have DACs for that - this is true for Pulse 2 as well.

All the processing that is part of the synth engine is going on within the hardware synth.

Same is the case for Trueno.

[Ingonator]

So just osc and filter are 'analog' not lfos and envs etc...looks very limited too.

Digital envelopes and LFOs were quite common since the 80s. In the last 30 years only quite a few analog synths also seemed to have analog envelopes and LFOs. AFAIK Trueno has up to 6 envelopes and 4 LFOs (both digital).

[Ingonator]

With my real anlog synths like Bass Station 2 and Waldorf Pulse 2 and even in digital/analog hybrid synths i still got here like e.g. Korg DW-8000 and Ensoniq ESQ-1 only a ADC is necessary to import the audio into an audio interface and the DAW. All the processing that is part of the synth engine is going on within the hardware synth. If i add digital effects within in the DAW this is no further processing after there was alraedy a ADC from the hardware involved.It just stays in the digital domain then.

Your Bass Station 2 and Pulse 2 also have DACs because they have presets - analog voltages have to be stored as digital values somehow. Obviously any synth that has digitally executed modulation has to have DACs for that - this is true for Pulse 2 as well.

All the processing that is part of the synth engine is going on within the hardware synth.

Same is the case for Trueno.

But with BS2 and Pulse 2 the synth engine is only included in the hardware. There are plugin editors but those are not part of the synth engine like with Trueno and both BS2 and Pulse 2 do also work without a computer attached to them.

The point is for what Trueno does it needs both ADC and DAC conversions and parts of the synth engine are included wit hteh plugin and not in the hardware. Due to that it is not possible to use it without a computer and the plugin (or Standalone software).

[EvilDragon]

You don't get it. Both BS2 and Pulse 2 have DACs in themselves as part of the synth engine itself, in order to support patch storage and modulation. Same is true for Trueno. Plugin editors just send the data to the hardware that transfers that to analog values via those DACs. Just because Trueno doesn't have a tactile surface like BS2/P2, doesn't mean it's the only one that needs to have DACs.

"Parts of synth engine are in the plugin" for Trueno is not true. Plugin is just setting the parameters for the hardware part, it doesn't "send" modulation to the hardware (of course, unless you automate the plugin parameters, but you can do that with other hardware plugin editors as well).

But with BS2 and Pulse 2 the synth engine is only included in the hardware. There are plugin editors but those are not part of the synth engine like with Trueno and both BS2 and Pulse 2 do also work without a computer attached to them.

(...) Due to that it is not possible to use it without a computer and the plugin (or Standalone software).

Please stop being Captain Obvious

[Ingonator]

You don't get it. Both BS2 and Pulse 2 have DACs in themselves as part of the synth engine itself, in order to support patch storage and modulation. Same is true for Trueno. Plugin editors just send the data to the hardware that transfers that to analog values via those DACs. Just because Trueno doesn't have a tactile surface like BS2/P2, doesn't mean it's the only one that needs to have DACs.

"Parts of synth engine are in the plugin" for Trueno is not true. Plugin is just setting the parameters for the hardware part, it doesn't "send" modulation to the hardware (of course, unless you automate the plugin parameters, but you can do that with other hardware plugin editors as well).

You told me that there is no RAM/ROM in the USB stick but if everything is included with the hardware how do the digital parts like e.g. digital noise, digital/additive waveforms (+ additive editor), wavetables, digital modulations and digital efefcts work like? In that case there must not be only a DAC included in the hardware but also a DSP chip, a CPU and RAM/ROM chips. If not then the plugin must be part of the synth engine and again you still need a DAC to do al that.

[EvilDragon]

It's very likely there's a DSP chip in there that sorts out the effects that Trueno has (unless, of course, they were done in hardware as well - some delay buffers, some allpass filters... certainly plausible to have that in an IC). And now that you say it, it's likely that waveforms are stored in ROM somewhere too, so that would be my mistake. Again, there's no question when modulation is done digitally that there have to be DACs in case of analog synths. And this is true for Trueno, BS2, Pulse 2 and many others too.

As far as I'm concerned, this matter is closed now.

[Ingonator]

So if the whole synth engine and other stuff like analog circuits, CPU, DSP, RAM/ROM chips, DAC + ADC converters and an USB controller are included in the hardware the question would still be how this could fit into something like that USB small stick...

[EvilDragon]

How many times does it need to be repeated: high level of circuit integration in chips. There are dozens of millions of transistors in today's CPUs, which ARE the size of USB sticks or less (if square rather than rectangular). Analog synths are much MUCH less complex by comparison. It can be done. It HAS been done. This is not rocket science.