Tone2 I2 vs Trueno Analog

[wickfut]

Interesting... But I don't really understand to who this is made for.
I use both software and also got a medium/large eurorack and other true analogs.. + Virus TI etc.

USB can be a pain, even with the Virus TI. Now....if this USB dingle introduces latency..... how the hell is connecting external MIDI controllers to this even useful when it introduces so large latency?

The reason for using hardware today is not only the sound, its the "hands on" interfaces....
I'm sorry but HUGE latency like this introduces is a no-no when working with hardware....

I dont really get the product and who it is aimed for.... Im thinking gimmick..

I don't understand why it exists either.

It would have been better being a USB MIDI controlled analogue synth with its own outputs and ultra low latency rather than act like another audio interface to add 700+ ms latency on top of what you're already getting with your soundcard.

Currently it seems to be a posh dongle for a basic VST synth

[Freaqpeak]

In my opinion, this thing could be an interesting concept,
- if it would have an analog audio out mini jack
- if it had 96k DAC
- if it would also run without special drivers/plugins, means beeing "class compliant", accepting MIDI data (incl. CC's)
  then it would be really portable; stick it in any computer, feed it from any controller keyboard with notes and MIDI-CC, listen to it analog with no latency and at the end render to the DAW (latency doesnt matter then)
With a second USB-B-port it could even be connected directly with any USB MIDI controller keyboard, giving a fully controllable analog synth expander in a matchbox (powered from a USB-charger at the A-port)....

Agreed.

+ latency can't be huge...

[ghettosynth]

So what your saying is it works the other way round...DACs sample the analogue circuit to measure values? Interesting, I assume this can still be done while maintaining a fully analogue signal path.

Was a typo. ADCs sample the analog circuit to convert values to digital. DACs convert the stored value in a RAM chip somewhere (your preset) to analog value.

If modulation is digital, then it already isn't a fully analog signal path

One of the most overrated and nonsensical marketing driven "features" ever. However, many people do not view modulation as part of the signal path, e.g., Dave Smith, who repeatedly touted the feature for the P08 to draw attention away from the fact that the oscillators aren't VCOs, hence, not actually analog.

No, I'm not going to debate that with people. DCOs can sound great, I have lots of synths with them, but they aren't analog in an important way for an oscillator to be analog, specifically, the timing is not controlled by an analog circuit.

Not everything has to be analog to get the advantages that an analog synth provides. Sticking a per voice analog filter on a digital synth gets you a lot of the way there. That is, there is not a uniform distribution of value in analog-ness spread across all components in a synth. Some components are worth more than others, and frankly, I don't give a f**k what Bob Moog had to say about it, and I respect him for who he was, but, he never made a piece of music that anyone gives a shit about. In contrast, many musicians over the last several decades have made a vast catalog of music with analog synths that were never recorded onto analog tape and that community still relishes the value of analog synths, in the right contexts. Running analog synths through and ADC and then a DAC, of sufficient quality, doesn't remove the qualities of an analog synth that make it great in the first place. Just having an "analog signal path" is not what's important.

[db3]

+ latency can't be huge...

Earlier in thread the Dev said...

On my Windows system I get an added latency of 771 samples or about 17.5ms. On DAWs that implement latency compensation properly, all your plugins would be delayed by 771 samples, so there won't be any timing issues. Trueno doesn't work like an audio interface, its audio just comes out of the plugin, there's a built in recording function (which compensates for the added latency) or you can just record the plugins output from your DAW (which sometimes doesn't compensate for the added latency).

[wickfut]

so there won't be any timing issues.

unless you actually like try and play the thing with a controller

[ghettosynth]

Interesting... But I don't really understand to who this is made for.
I use both software and also got a medium/large eurorack and other true analogs.. + Virus TI etc.

USB can be a pain, even with the Virus TI. Now....if this USB dingle introduces latency..... how the hell is connecting external MIDI controllers to this even useful when it introduces so large latency?

The reason for using hardware today is not only the sound, its the "hands on" interfaces....
I'm sorry but HUGE latency like this introduces is a no-no when working with hardware....

I dont really get the product and who it is aimed for.... Im thinking gimmick..

I don't understand why it exists either.

I mentioned this earlier, it's obvious who it's targeting. If you have a hybrid studio, e.g., you have maybe a mixer, some external gear, a multi input interface, etc., then it's not you. This is targeted at contemporary laptop producers. I have a LOT of friends who fit this demographic. They love the idea of analog synths, but they often don't even have any audio interface other than what's in their laptop. They generally don't play keyboards well, if at all, and their equipment is often limited to a single controller, maybe not even a keyboard, and headphones, or maybe monitors.

For that person an analog synth is really unobtainable. Even if money isn't really an issue, and it often is, the complexity and hassle of setting it all up isn't appealing to them. However, a real analog synth that interfaces to your DAW entirely from a USB port that sells for less than $200, you f**king bet that's going to be interesting to them.

All the things that you guys are complaining about are going to be non-issues to the intended market. Some of my friends wouldn't even know what sample rate is, and yet they produce a ton of music. Latency? They don't give a shit, most of their music is entered on the piano roll. They press play, the music plays.

[wickfut]

I mentioned this earlier, it's obvious who it's targeting. If you have a hybrid studio, e.g., you have maybe a mixer, some external gear, a multi input interface, etc., then it's not you.

Gotcha, it's not aimed at people who write music.

This is targeted at contemporary laptop producers. I have a LOT of friends who fit this demographic. They love the idea of analog synths, but they often don't even have any audio interface other than what's in their laptop. They generally don't play keyboards well, if at all, and their equipment is often limited to a single controller, maybe not even a keyboard, and headphones, or maybe monitors.

These same laptop producers who will kick and scream over a USB dongle taking up their precious USB ports will welcome this with open arms, won't they.

For that person an analog synth is really unobtainable. Even if money isn't really an issue, and it often is, the complexity and hassle of setting it all up isn't appealing to them. However, a real analog synth that interfaces to your DAW entirely from a USB port that sells for less than $200, you f**king bet that's going to be interesting to them.

So someone who doesn't have a studio, who runs their music on laptops, who isn't rich and who finds setting up everything to be overly complex is who this is aimed at. Maybe they should rethink their market a bit more.

All the things that you guys are complaining about are going to be non-issues to the intended market. Some of my friends wouldn't even know what sample rate is, and yet they produce a ton of music. Latency? They don't give a shit, most of their music is entered on the piano roll. They press play, the music plays.

Your spin is hilarious. You have magically created this huge subset of music producers who will love this device while alienating the people who would actually get benefit from it, rather than just admit that the device as a whole is poorly executed and useless to most pro and hobbyist musicians.

carry on.

[ATN69]

If it sounds good it sounds good. If it work like a dream then that's great. If it brings something new to the table then that's nice. But it isn't a real analog and should not be marketed as such. Oscillators, filters, etc might be analog but the signal is inevitable A/D converted in order for the computer to be able to handle it, and then D/A converted back again in the sound card. It simply sends the wrong idea to people who doesn't understand the difference. Having said that, it's still possible to make digital stuff that sounds like the real analog thing, like Repro-5. But there is no need for any USB dongle with Repro-5 so I don't see the big gain with the Trueno concept.

[ghettosynth]

I mentioned this earlier, it's obvious who it's targeting. If you have a hybrid studio, e.g., you have maybe a mixer, some external gear, a multi input interface, etc., then it's not you.

Gotcha, it's not aimed at people who write music.

You can be as judgmental as you like but there is a generation of music loved and enjoyed by people who make music in this way and they don't share your opinion.

This is targeted at contemporary laptop producers. I have a LOT of friends who fit this demographic. They love the idea of analog synths, but they often don't even have any audio interface other than what's in their laptop. They generally don't play keyboards well, if at all, and their equipment is often limited to a single controller, maybe not even a keyboard, and headphones, or maybe monitors.

These same laptop producers who will kick and scream over a USB dongle taking up their precious USB ports will welcome this with open arms, won't they.

People who play live with their laptops are the ones generally complaining. However, let's not elevate a stated objection as a true objection. It's easier to complain about the USB port than it is to fork over $40 for a dongle for many of those guys. Especially when there are plenty of alternatives.

For that person an analog synth is really unobtainable. Even if money isn't really an issue, and it often is, the complexity and hassle of setting it all up isn't appealing to them. However, a real analog synth that interfaces to your DAW entirely from a USB port that sells for less than $200, you f**king bet that's going to be interesting to them.

So someone who doesn't have a studio, who runs their music on laptops, who isn't rich and who finds setting up everything to be overly complex is who this is aimed at. Maybe they should rethink their market a bit more.

In your opinion, however, I'm guessing that you're going to be wrong on this. People who have studios are going to be better served by more traditional analog solutions.

Go watch some CM videos of studios of contemporary producers who are far more successful than you are at getting their music out there to get a sense of how its often done today.

All the things that you guys are complaining about are going to be non-issues to the intended market. Some of my friends wouldn't even know what sample rate is, and yet they produce a ton of music. Latency? They don't give a shit, most of their music is entered on the piano roll. They press play, the music plays.

Your spin is hilarious. You have magically created this huge subset of music producers who will love this device while alienating the people who would actually get benefit from it, rather than just admit that the device as a whole is poorly executed and useless to most pro and hobbyist musicians.

carry on.

I never said that it was huge, I said that it was who this thing is targeted at. The choice to build the form factor as it is targets exactly that market at a lower price point than virtually any of the competition for a preset recallable analog that does not require any additional equipment.

I don't think that you have any reasonable perception whatsoever about "who would get benefit." Are trying to imply that people who create dance music wouldn't benefit from having an analogue voice in their studios, really? Or are you seriously saying that anyone with a more sophisticated studio wouldn't get more benefit from a minlogue or an SE2? The low price point is the giveaway. People who want analog but don't have the supporting infrastructure is who this is for. If you have the supporting infrastructure and a few more bucks then you don't need an analogue computer that only interfaces via a USB port.

[ghettosynth]

... I must have quoted myself instead of editing...oops

[EvilDragon]

Well that makes no sense to me, as there are plenty of digitally controlled analogue synths which offer complex modulation, and have a full analogue signal path. Take Elektron for example...only the FX send passes into the digital realm.

Or a newer Moog..."The Sub 37 is an analogue/digital hybrid with an analogue signal path controlled by digitally generated modulators and contour generators."

Yes, Sub 37 has DACs in order to execute those modulations and store presets. It doesn't have to make sense to you, but it's a fact: where there's digital control, there are DACs. Plain and simple. Write it 100 times on the blackboard!

[db3]

Well that makes no sense to me, as there are plenty of digitally controlled analogue synths which offer complex modulation, and have a full analogue signal path. Take Elektron for example...only the FX send passes into the digital realm.

Or a newer Moog..."The Sub 37 is an analogue/digital hybrid with an analogue signal path controlled by digitally generated modulators and contour generators."

Yes, Sub 37 has DACs in order to execute those modulations and store presets. It doesn't have to make sense to you, but it's a fact: where there's digital control, there are DACs. Plain and simple. Write it 100 times on the blackboard!

ok...but as I see it the signal isn't being converted in itself — the audio remains fully analogue. I think there's some confusion here between digital processing of the path for control/recall and digital conversion of the actual audio signal.

[wickfut]

!"£$%^&*(

I know there are people out there who use just a midi keyboard and do everything in the box, I was one of them for a while when I sold up all my hardware.

My point is that you have somehow figured out that these people who don't really care for hardware enough to invest in anything at all, who are happy fiddling with GM sounds on the piano roll, will welcome some USB device which adds a simple single instance of an analogue VST synth to their set up. Your whole point is contradictory. They either care about music enough to buy things or they don't. A USB synth isn't going to be high up on that persons purchasing list if they should want to take this "piano roll" shit they do to the next level.

As for your USB point. Laptops generally have a couple of USB ports. One will possibly be taken up by an audio interface, another by say an ilok or eLicencer, a midi keyboard, an external mouse etc. A laptop user isn't the intended market for this device at all.

I don't think that you have any reasonable perception whatsoever about "who would get benefit." Are trying to imply that people who create dance music wouldn't benefit from having an analogue voice in their studios, really?

I'm not trying to imply anythying. I clearly stated that I don't believe this device in its current form has no market. You're the one dreaming up a certain type of subset producer person who would be all over this.
The latency is too high. The synth appears to be too limited and the whole thing screams like jumping on the current analogue mini-synth bandwagon.
Maybe if in the future they'd scrap the analogue synth part, lower the latency down to actual usable levels and let us pass audio from the DAW through its analogue section it may take off, until then I wish them the best but don't see it going anywhere.

[ghettosynth]

Well that makes no sense to me, as there are plenty of digitally controlled analogue synths which offer complex modulation, and have a full analogue signal path. Take Elektron for example...only the FX send passes into the digital realm.

Or a newer Moog..."The Sub 37 is an analogue/digital hybrid with an analogue signal path controlled by digitally generated modulators and contour generators."

Yes, Sub 37 has DACs in order to execute those modulations and store presets. It doesn't have to make sense to you, but it's a fact: where there's digital control, there are DACs. Plain and simple. Write it 100 times on the blackboard!

Right !?! LOL@ "which offer complex modulation, and have a full analogue signal path"..."with an analogue signal path controlled by digitally generated modulators and contour generators."

This fully analogue signal path nonsense has obviously fooled those lacking a technical education. Yay marketing!

There was never much value to "fully analogue signal path." The vast majority of favorite records from the 80s were massively treated with newfangled digital time base effects technology. It's a term used to sell the ignorant while allowing details about which parts are analog and which are digital to be swept under the rug. The term has really come about because of the resurgence of analog and manufacturers wanting to cater to the purist market while still employing cost saving measures.

Sub 37 has DACs and a significant part of the synth itself, e.g., the modulators, are software.

Virtually every analogue poly ever made uses DACs (usually one with a multiplexer), and almost all polys since about 1985 or so use software for some or all of the modulators.

[EvilDragon]

Well that makes no sense to me, as there are plenty of digitally controlled analogue synths which offer complex modulation, and have a full analogue signal path. Take Elektron for example...only the FX send passes into the digital realm.

Or a newer Moog..."The Sub 37 is an analogue/digital hybrid with an analogue signal path controlled by digitally generated modulators and contour generators."

Yes, Sub 37 has DACs in order to execute those modulations and store presets. It doesn't have to make sense to you, but it's a fact: where there's digital control, there are DACs. Plain and simple. Write it 100 times on the blackboard!

ok...but as I see it the signal isn't being converted in itself — the audio remains fully analogue. I think there's some confusion here between digital processing of the path for control/recall and digital conversion of the actual audio signal.

Control signal is still being converted from/to analog/digital and back. It is NOT a fully analog path then unless modulation is done completely with analog components. Also, fully analog path means "no presets".