Tone2 I2 vs Trueno Analog

[ghettosynth]

!"£$%^&*(

I know there are people out there who use just a midi keyboard and do everything in the box, I was one of them for a while when I sold up all my hardware.

My point is that you have somehow figured out that these people who don't really care for hardware enough to invest in anything at all, who are happy fiddling with GM sounds on the piano roll,

Who said anything about "fiddling" or "GM Sounds". Hate to break it to you mate, they're releasing records. They use the same softsynths that you and I use.

As for your USB point. Laptops generally have a couple of USB ports. One will possibly be taken up by an audio interface, another by say an ilok or eLicencer, a midi keyboard, an external mouse etc. A laptop user isn't the intended market for this device at all.

USB hubs are less than $10. Get a clue.

I don't think that you have any reasonable perception whatsoever about "who would get benefit." Are trying to imply that people who create dance music wouldn't benefit from having an analogue voice in their studios, really?

I'm not trying to imply anythying. I clearly stated that I don't believe this device in its current form has no market. You're the one dreaming up a certain type of subset producer person who would be all over this.

YEs, and I clearly stated that I think that you're wrong.

The latency is too high.

Latency is meaningless if you aren't using a controller to play it.

The synth appears to be too limited and the whole thing screams like jumping on the current analogue mini-synth bandwagon.

It's much less limited than the Volca line and that has been very successful for Korg. Of course it's "jumping on the analog bandwagon", that's what people are buying. It's targeting a price point that is lower than what is typical for an analogue with presets. I think that the latency issue will hamper sales, but not like you seem to think. I predict that they'll improve that eventually.

[db3]

Also, fully analog path means "no presets".

Well there you go..we're talking about 2 entirely different things

[SLiC]

On Latency - I use Overbridge extensively with my Analog4 and Analog RYTM, this is pretty much the same thing as far as I can tell as to what this new USB device is doing. They claim around 17ms latency, with Overbridge the Elektron set up reports 7ms in and 17ms out at 128 buffer (fast). This is perfectly playable for a synth, I haven't seen any complaints about latency whilst playing with Overbridge and Electron.

Extract from SOS article on latency-https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... ncy-part-2

Even when playing soft synths in 'real time', I've never personally had any real problems with a claimed 20mS latency. If you concentrate hard, you may be aware of the lag between hitting a key and hearing the note, but many piano players will already be used to this, since there is always some delay between hitting a key on an acoustic piano and the hammer hitting the string. Moreover, when you play back sounds through a loudspeaker, the speed of sound is such that each foot it travels takes about 1ms — so a latency of 6ms is equivalent to listening to a loudspeaker six feet away, which doesn't seem to bother the majority of guitarists. For a more extreme example, remember the church organ player who may be 50 feet or more away from some of his pipes!

[wickfut]

Who said anything about "fiddling" or "GM Sounds". Hate to break it to you mate, they're releasing records. They use the same softsynths that you and I use.

I see. You know lots of people releasing records who just use a laptop, program on the piano roll and don't own any other gear who are just itching to get their hands on a usb device such as this. Shouldn't be too difficult to start rolling off some names of these people then should it?

USB hubs are less than $10. Get a clue.

I thought you said they didn't want added complexity? They won't buy a damn audio interface or external keyboard but will happily string along usb hubs.

YEs, and I clearly stated that I think that you're wrong.

Luckily, I remember that you're that same clown that was preaching about how people shouldn't use large monitors because it made you suffer from some sore neck, while forgetting to mention that you spend like 16 hours a day perched on your computer.

You should take this as that I don't really care for your opinion of me.

Latency is meaningless if you aren't using a controller to play it.

It does when you want to sell your device to people who write music on computers.

It's much less limited than the Volca line and that has been very successful for Korg. Of course it's "jumping on the analog bandwagon", that's what people are buying. It's targeting a price point that is lower than what is typical for an analogue with presets. I think that the latency issue will hamper sales, but not like you seem to think. I predict that they'll improve that eventually.

U WOT M8? A Volca isn't in any way similar to this device other than it'll have the word "analogue" stuck on its box somewhere.

[ghettosynth]

Well that makes no sense to me, as there are plenty of digitally controlled analogue synths which offer complex modulation, and have a full analogue signal path. Take Elektron for example...only the FX send passes into the digital realm.

Or a newer Moog..."The Sub 37 is an analogue/digital hybrid with an analogue signal path controlled by digitally generated modulators and contour generators."

Yes, Sub 37 has DACs in order to execute those modulations and store presets. It doesn't have to make sense to you, but it's a fact: where there's digital control, there are DACs. Plain and simple. Write it 100 times on the blackboard!

ok...but as I see it the signal isn't being converted in itself — the audio remains fully analogue. I think there's some confusion here between digital processing of the path for control/recall and digital conversion of the actual audio signal.

Control signal is still being converted from/to analog/digital and back. It is NOT a fully analog path then unless modulation is done completely with analog components. Also, fully analog path means "no presets".

That's not what Moog or Dave Smith mean by the term. "Fully analog signal path" generally means that that the audio path doesn't pass through an AD->DA chain as it would with any digital effects. It's frequently used as a selling point for synths with digital modulators or synths with DCOs.

AFAIK, the term was never used in the 70s and 80s and is only a recent invention which is related to the mistaken idea that digital=bad. Vendors want to reassure their purist customers that their precious analog signal is never touched by dirty analogue to digital converters at any point between the oscillator and the output jack.

Frankly, it could be argued that this synth has a "fully analog signal path" because the final AD is no different than the AD you would use with your sound card. So, it's as "fully analog" as a Sub37 being recorded through whatever interface you have.

However, it is the case that virtually no polysynth is "fully analog" even if we only restrict that to all circuits past the voice assigner.

[AnX]

So just osc and filter are 'analog' not lfos and envs etc...looks very limited too.

Digital envelopes and LFOs were quite common since the 80s. In the last 30 years only quite a few analog synths also seemed to have analog envelopes and LFOs. AFAIK Trueno has up to 6 envelopes and 4 LFOs (both digital).

Really? I never knew that!

[ghettosynth]

USB hubs are less than $10. Get a clue.

I thought you said they didn't want added complexity? They won't buy a damn audio interface or external keyboard but will happily string along usb hubs.

I said that they didn't have studios, not that they were afraid of a USB hub.

YEs, and I clearly stated that I think that you're wrong.

Luckily, I remember that you're that same clown ...

And you should cool it on the name calling or I'll get a moderator to help you understand the rules here.

[EvilDragon]

Also, fully analog path means "no presets".

Well there you go..we're talking about 2 entirely different things

No, actually, it's you misunderstanding what "fully analog path" really means.

[ghettosynth]

So just osc and filter are 'analog' not lfos and envs etc...looks very limited too.

Digital envelopes and LFOs were quite common since the 80s. In the last 30 years only quite a few analog synths also seemed to have analog envelopes and LFOs. AFAIK Trueno has up to 6 envelopes and 4 LFOs (both digital).

Really? I never knew that!

Yes, they were one of the first serious cost cutting measures used in analogue polys. The prophet 600, the first poly analogue with midi, came out in 1982 and used digital envelopes and lfos to save money. The use of digital modulators predates the use of external programmers such as the PG300/PG800.

I would say that the vast majority of analogue polys from the 80s used digital modulators.

[chk071]

Do the synths which claim to have a "100% analog signal path" also have, e.g., digital envelopes? What are the benefits of a fully analog signal path? Or is it just something you write on your synth, for marketing reasons?

[ghettosynth]

Do the synths which claim to have a "100% analog signal path" also have, e.g., digital envelopes? What are the benefits of a fully analog signal path? Or is it just something you write on your synth, for marketing reasons?

YEs, e.g, the P08 from Dave Smith. It's marketing. I've explained it above. It's definitely effective as it distracts those not knowledgeable and it's constructed in such a way that it allows the most significant cost cutting measures, e.g. DCOs and digital modulators, to be employed.

[chk071]

Alright, thanks. I definitely think that it should not matter if stuff like the envelopes or modulators are digital in a synth, at least when done right. That "full analog signal path" always rather appeared to be aimed at elitists to me.

[db3]

Also, fully analog path means "no presets".

Well there you go..we're talking about 2 entirely different things

No, actually, it's you misunderstanding what "fully analog path" really means.

Not at all, I know what I understand it to mean...as do hardware manufacturers.

[ghettosynth]

Alright, thanks. I definitely think that it should not matter if stuff like the envelopes or modulators are digital in a synth, at least when done right. That "full analog signal path" always rather appeared to be aimed at elitists to me.

Yes, you say "elitists", I say "purists", I think we're talking about the same crowd. Most music done with analog synths does not use an "all analog signal path."

In fact, I'm generally more bothered by the opposite, that a digital signal path incorporates an unnecessary DA->AD chain as was done in the Kurzweil K2000. The digital outputs of that synth are taken from the effects processor which is cheap and noisy and is only coupled to the synth via the synth's analog outputs.

I should say though, that it does matter somewhat in early synths and was a frequent source of complaints. The Matrix 12's cpu for instance can barely keep up when you're using all of the modulators and it's enough for the timing be be off. I know people that used to exploit that property for special effect.

[EvilDragon]

Also, fully analog path means "no presets".

Well there you go..we're talking about 2 entirely different things

No, actually, it's you misunderstanding what "fully analog path" really means.

Not at all, I know what I understand it to mean...as do hardware manufacturers.

Yeah, right. As ghetto says, it's a marketing blurb. Want a fully analog signal path? Get a vintage Minimoog. Simple as that.