KVR Audio

Karen-K · Post by **Karen-K** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:00 am

shamann wrote: Aside from the 'sound design this versus sound design that' arguments that will likely ensue, one reason to have onboard effects in a synth would be to tailor them to the modulation mechanisms already in the synth. So you could easily have one LFO modulating both a filter cutoff and chorus amount.

This is the best argument I've read,seriously.
But (there's always a but

)modulation options are not intrinsic/dependant to onboard synth fx unit.
Most of the delay's fx and modulated delay effect have internal lfo's (even free ones check Kjaerhus Fx) and sync to tempo options.
Most of the time they include features that the synth don't have...so I admit your comment is good but again I don't think it's justified in a synth specs
I think all Fx pages must be available for free

and must not be include in the synth price..then it would be a real add-on 'cause I wouldn't be sad to not use something I paid for

(I'm joking

)
Karen

shamann · Post by **shamann** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:14 am

Karen-K wrote:This is the best argument I've read,seriously.

Thank you, I blush.

Karen-K wrote:But (there's always a but )modulation options are not intrinsic/dependant to onboard synth fx unit.
Most of the delay's fx and modulated delay effect have internal lfo's (even free ones check Kjaerhus Fx) and sync to tempo options.

I agree that a lot of onboard fx are useless on a lot of synths. Mostly I think they are there for convenience (all in one interface) and for the appearance of value (bang for your buck).

But in cases of fairly complex synths, the situation becomes different. Consider a patch in Vaz Modular. I can have one LFO modulate a second LFO, which then modulates filter cutoff, amplitude and phaser feedback. And neither LFO needs to be tempo sync'ed. They could be free running outside of the beat.

Maybe a modular is cheating in this argument, as fx and synths can't be classified as such, you just simply have a collection of audio sources and audio processors to string together, but the case applies to a synth like z3ta+, which allows you to have LFOs on LFOs on delay times etc.

Also handy when you can mix the signal path around a bit, so that you can have an osc go into reverb then go into a delay and then into a low pass filter. Not enough VSTi allow unfixed signal paths.

Cheers,
Steve

Karen-K · Post by **Karen-K** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:28 am

you're right steve

I think it must be more approriate in Modular environment when you need to have all under your hand.
BTW VAZ is a good example 'cause routing can be done in a different way;
Also as you said it Modular synth cannot be compared to standard VST Synth with Fx page integrated.
When you buy a modular like VAZ or Tassman you don't buy it for to put Fx on your synths.
But I'll have to admit it's a good reason

thanks for your suggestions, It don't change my point of view but I'm less angry with those nasty Fx pages

Karen

shamann · Post by **shamann** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:36 am

Less angry is good, prolonged anger is hard on your body.

I thought of another good reason. Sometimes the effects just sound so good. Check out Rhino. The effects there sound fantastic. Synth is still great without them, mind, but it doesn't to have them available.

Cheers,
Steve

Karen-K · Post by **Karen-K** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:46 am

Ok boy, you won, but usualy the last word is for the ladie

I'll give try to rhino.
Thanx for your advices
Kisses
Karen

tony tony chopper · Post by **tony tony chopper** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:04 am

Most of the delay's fx and modulated delay effect have internal lfo's (even free ones check Kjaerhus Fx) and sync to tempo options.

I made Sytrus so that you can route oscillators (with envelope) individually through the effects bus.
So that you can for ex make a voice send to a delay using an envelope, or route an oscillator out as well as through a filter then through a delay. Or route an oscillator through a delay with a small attack, so that the transients are smoothed up and the delay sounds a bit like a reverb.

Karen-K · Post by **Karen-K** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:19 am

Well Gol I admit this is a real great argument.
This is a new kind of Synth Fx because it gives you abilities to do things that you normally can't do in any other synth or with standalone VST Fx.
In this case, and as far as I know this is the only one (don't talk to me about synth blahblah modulation matrix), Fx is a real part of the synth sound building, 'cause it's a unique way to create the sound, You can't do it in another way.
But it's only in sytrus....hope we'll get it on every other synths soon :)Hope for you not Gol

Or Sytrus will be the next kind of virus topic here @ KvR, try to imagine that

BTW impressive synth you've made

Thanks for the informations
Karen

valley · Post by **valley** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:02 am

I've got to agree with Bones. I like to be able to save effects settings as part of a patch.

For presets, I usually hate it because invariably the effect levels are way over the top. When programming my own patches though, included presets give me a sound that is ready to go in just a few clicks, and if I have an idea in my head, that's sometimes as long as I have available before I lose it.

If I had to load up a synth, load a preset, load a few FX, load some presets, set up send levels, all before I could even start toying with the idea in my head, I'd probably get even less done that I do now.

Built in FX is about convenience. I may well replace the effects at mix down, but for sketching quick bursts of inspiration, they are a real bonus.

kritikon · Post by **kritikon** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:19 am

And not all FX are identical. Apart from basslines, I rarely if ever use any synth line without some kind of effect, even if it's only compression or Eq.
impOSCar is the only synth I know with a ducking delay...which is extremely useful. I'd be lost without it. I only have one other FX suite which can do that - QuantumFX, and for various reasons, I don't always want to use that on a particular synth line.
Crystal has some delays that can do wonderful things - particularly because of the routing options. You can't do that with any other delay I have. Crystal can chain delays together, modulate the Eq and the resonance in line with the oscillator settings, even modulate the depth as part of the patch depending on the nuances of your playing style. Cannot be replaced by host's FX.
Even hardware - personally I don't much like a Wavestation's FX, but many users love them - they are quite distinctive. Ever tried playing a WS patch with the preset FX, then comparing to the dry patch? Wavestations just sound nasty without any FX whatsoever. But they are unique and can be beautiful and are one of a kind.

I have no beef with onboard FX - as long as I can turn them off, I have the option, therefore am happy. I might like some VSTi FX; others I don't. At least it's another choice I have, and in some instances the FX do add something to the sonic character. Rarely do choruses sound identical - certainly no separate chorus FX I have sounds the same, so why should VSTi choruses be any different?

Overdrive...Impulse and impOSCar have beautiful overdrives that I have yet to reproduce on any other VSTFX. They add huge amounts to the character - it could be said that these synths would be alot more ordinary without it - but with them they become classics. I actually find most separate VSTFX overdrives to be quite unuseable, so the synthFX are an added buying incentive. I'd probably still have bought impOSCar if it didn't have the drive...but I would have had to think long and hard about it, because without the drive, it simply wouldn't be an OSCar.

Even things like reverbs - most native reverbs are simply awful. On their own, most VSTi reverbs are awful too; But certain patches go well with a crappy sounding metallic spring reverb - they evoke the old-style. Sometimes they can be useful, and it all depends on how you program synths. I see no reason why VSTi's shouldn't have FX onboard at all.

Goa Head · Post by **Goa Head** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 6:00 am

I like em there... Especially if you can route LFO's to them. Most of the time delays or reverb is part of my individual patch design. Can't really complain about this as these are just icing on the cake. We hear this quite often here, but, if you don't like em... Turn em off.

glurgle · Post by **glurgle** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:27 am

The only valid argument for it I see is modulating the fx as part of the synth patch. Personally, I like to use envelope components all over energyXT to draw envelopes/lfo's for any (or multiple) parameter(s) of any synth or effect in a patch. Of course they can retrigger on each noteon etc etc.

otoh, that sounds like work to some people, so onboard FX do have a purpose.

(and this was such an amicable thread)

edit: *but* fx that are cloned for each voice in a polyphonic synth (I'm thinking subduer distortion here) are as much a part of the synth as the filters, previous comments only apply to onboard fx that are slapped on the master out of the synth

progfusion74 · Post by **progfusion74** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:32 am

glurgle wrote:The only valid argument for it I see is modulating the fx as part of the synth patch. Personally, I like to use envelope components all over energyXT to draw envelopes/lfo's for any (or multiple) parameter(s) of any synth or effect in a patch. Of course they can retrigger on each noteon etc etc.

otoh, that sounds like work to some people, so onboard FX live on.

(and this was such an amicable thread)

But that wouldn't work if one is using a synth standalone and just jamming, playing, or programming a patch to meet the sound in ones head in a standalone instrument (at least I program z3ta+, MMV2, etc as standalone or in Chainer)

glurgle · Post by **glurgle** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:36 am

I forgot about that. tbph, I haven't run a synth standalone in forever. and now that I have eXT and it takes me 10 seconds to load it, the synth I want, and start playing, I don't think I ever will again.

p.s. - I do apologize for being such a fanboy, but it's that f**king cool

progfusion74 · Post by **progfusion74** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:42 am

glurgle wrote:I forgot about that. tbph, I haven't run a synth standalone in forever. and now that I have eXT and it takes me 10 seconds to load it, the synth I want, and start playing, I don't think I ever will again.

p.s. - I do apologize for being such a fanboy, but it's that f**king cool

That's quite OK. I've been using it since it first came out

Why do people always want virtual synths with Fx on-board ?