Hey folks,
Hope you're all good.
I've been messing around with MDelay, trying to match the sound of one of my favorite delay plugins: Vengeance Delay.
And it's simply not possible. The reason: Vengeance delay has a different (more musical?) volume envelope for the delays.
What do i mean by this?
Ok, i'll explain it by explaining the feature i'd love to see in a future MDelay.
Say you've got a track at 103BPM.
You set your delay time to 1/8th notes.
How many delays do i want? exactly 4. No more no less. Or maybe i want 3 seconds of delay til silence. Or perhaps i want exactly 8 delays. This should all be user definable.
How should they decay? This is where an envelope comes in. If you think about it, it's kind of strange that not one single delay plugin has an envelope for the decay of the delays. Sure, you have feedback to control it, but this is pretty coarse and exercises no control of the contour of the decay volume of each successive delay .
So i'd love to see an envelope for delay decay, just the same way one has envelopes for amp and filter and many other applications.
And if you think about it, you could implement it in two ways. One way is that it determines the volume of each delay, with that volume staying the same for the duration of the whole sound in that delay.
And the other way would be the the volume keeps decaying during the duration of that sound.
Just some random thoughts.
Another essential feature is midi kill, so a new midi note kills the previous delays. And to make this more refined, you could even have a volume and envelope attached to this kill function, so you could say a new midi note (or sound if you want to use audio triggering) will drop the volume of the ringing delays by 30dB over 100ms or whatever.
Cheers! ...........D
Feature i'd love to see in a future delay
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- KVRist
- 168 posts since 7 Dec, 2016
Try FabFilter Timeless. I never needed another delay. Its very versatile and has many modulation possiblities (including envelopes 
) and you can control each channel separat (e.g. the times for pattern delays) and their cross feedback...
) and you can control each channel separat (e.g. the times for pattern delays) and their cross feedback...-
- KVRian
- 681 posts since 1 Jan, 2018
It sounds like you are basically looking for a multi-tap delay. There are many of those out there that could give you exactly four delays, and some, even free ones, that could give you more, but all the ones I've seen use sliders or knobs to set the volume, effect levels etc. The envelope feature of the Vengeance Delay sounds like a neat way to get around the tedium of adjusting knobs for each tap.
The reason that "regular" single-tap delays do not have an envelope for the decay of the echoes is that that all repetitions after the first are produced by feedback, so a bunch of overlapping delayed signals are mixed in with eachother in the same circular buffer. This prevents you from independently manipulating the volumes of the individual repetitions.
You can think of a single-tap delay like a tape loop, in which there is one recording head and one playback head, which feeds back some of the signal each time to the recording head to get mixed in with the incoming signal. Thus, the same signal keeps getting recorded and played back to produce the echoes. But a multi-tap delay is like a longer tape with multiple playback heads spaced out at the desired intervals, so that the echoes are produced as the tape arrives at each playback head in succession. Here, you can manipulate each echo individually: change the volume, apply effects, etc. Apologies if this is a bit too didactic, but I just wanted to clarify why conventional single-tap delays simply cannot have an envelope controlling the volumes of the delayed signals.
Using an envelope to adjust the parameters of a multi-tap delay is a great idea. It would be nice to see it more widely implemented.
The reason that "regular" single-tap delays do not have an envelope for the decay of the echoes is that that all repetitions after the first are produced by feedback, so a bunch of overlapping delayed signals are mixed in with eachother in the same circular buffer. This prevents you from independently manipulating the volumes of the individual repetitions.
You can think of a single-tap delay like a tape loop, in which there is one recording head and one playback head, which feeds back some of the signal each time to the recording head to get mixed in with the incoming signal. Thus, the same signal keeps getting recorded and played back to produce the echoes. But a multi-tap delay is like a longer tape with multiple playback heads spaced out at the desired intervals, so that the echoes are produced as the tape arrives at each playback head in succession. Here, you can manipulate each echo individually: change the volume, apply effects, etc. Apologies if this is a bit too didactic, but I just wanted to clarify why conventional single-tap delays simply cannot have an envelope controlling the volumes of the delayed signals.
Using an envelope to adjust the parameters of a multi-tap delay is a great idea. It would be nice to see it more widely implemented.
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- KVRAF
- 2702 posts since 9 Jul, 2015 from UK
This will be easy to achieve in MXXX. Just use delay tap inside a feedback loop, then use a volume envelope on the feedback level.
I will take a look for you when I get time, it could also be done in multitap mode with an envelope which might be better.
Don't forget MTurboDelay is coming soon.
I will take a look for you when I get time, it could also be done in multitap mode with an envelope which might be better.
Don't forget MTurboDelay is coming soon.
Jason @ Melda Production
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- KVRian
- 1061 posts since 3 Oct, 2011
Oh, that`s a good idea.jmg8 wrote:This will be easy to achieve in MXXX. Just use delay tap inside a feedback loop, then use a volume envelope on the feedback level.
I will take a look for you when I get time, it could also be done in multitap mode with an envelope which might be better.
Don't forget MTurboDelay is coming soon.
But do you have any ideas to implement the "kill" feature in MXXX, that presently does my head in? 
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 587 posts since 8 May, 2012 from E.U.
I don't think you can implement kill nicely in MXXX, because you'd need to simultaneously turn the feedback to zero, then up again, and i think there'd still be delayed audio in the buffer that will give you weirdness. Anyway, i tried it a while ago and it didn't work / was jumpy / glitchy.
I think it's something that needs to be coded / crafted by hand and tweaked (by the developer) to have the correct behaviour.
I think it's something that needs to be coded / crafted by hand and tweaked (by the developer) to have the correct behaviour.
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- KVRian
- 710 posts since 7 May, 2002 from Phoenix, Arizona, USA
Does this do the kill behavior you are looking for? For any midi note received it will disable/kill the delay via a midi triggered envelope linked to the enable button, and immediately after enable the delay again.
Paste the following or import the attached preset.
Paste the following or import the attached preset.
Code: Select all
$eNrtW91v2zgSf89fIeg9Nr8kUoDthfPhNkDd5GLf9u5eFqpFx8LKkivJSdOH-dtvSEo2JdvZ9C4tUEDpwraGw5nhcDjzmwU1+O3rOnEeZV7EWTp0cQ+5jkwXWRSnD0N3Wy7Phfvb6GwwvZJJ+Dy9KGRZwlDhXGZJEm4KGd3HD6vyLkxlMnRh8mWWljmMgcTrNPycyMiQ86woMtAzzSI5dAmLLvrZorQG5s8bGBinYZI9AHmb5zIt73IJGm+uhu71f-6K5DLcJjDnXRinSIv9EKd-mh-3s00Sl6XMZ-E3iYeuL1APIUQxQh5tj5OhSynuBUHgiyBg3HWmIDi+C-NwLYGn2K1OC4fVaXWjwc5aZefzN5k79Y-LVZiCD8zypvFX19ktH9e-P61k+j6OIplqsbNsmy+AG8z7FKdR9mRc8B4EgSpY+jJOwBhwt3OVh0-wbaQrQ+6yOC2dSRI+FBeggYGOr2r7KMKIwLo833f7p9hYm61vK1Oqs4WEdeaosYhJnCTqR9-iwCoQshyMQuNLhCYT1xDAw+giEOxKUexAuAXn5XEkq2kgdr6KF3oTbbmklqukNuWC1Gt08bdybWnUlja+bEpDFx77LmnMluaN29IweY20WZZmDxBuNiOQNUth5KmYq-4qDbimCGT5WftnZwVVlMnE8hkbuupZU9RmHwQxnO-PYRohZ1MfgHHykOVxuVrj63S7HrrzcCPdI8NmVIVlnlrjkUoWYEePc+ExjgkhmLbH1WJ62KKaFAOyjFR1GiGPJDZH-qwduiMspYw+hzp8egE-MqCVMGtgosN8r+Um3WxLxwS-zZZL+U02lRkabhIfIBfplSKOkc8FxsJvDeMXxj-IZXm7XEKSa4rd01v6puFXsOPLFpL0c-skW1xxanHhE1xr8EK1wZdJWBTxojV4amwTphn8DJum1dSWxfeyyNIwVZkO9Tx7QFWOY4u3BlqyZmG5zcNS16oGfbVdLhN5lNgSUTynC6wTT4NEDkmLbJuW+AT9CH8i04dy9ccflUux03fECRZymgX8Hi+fj6g1A0f0llA2Kp2zMg+V845wVCqvMiiCkTVehpumSCBgk43OBh8mt8VIfTYrQVXlbq5ugPwok0xlh3kepkUMRduMXqcrtemRKla7qI6LqqT3Laoz2SbJfZg+wCw4qhDhv4fJVlalt2L6CF9D9wLSlIOdcwcS0v7bdaoJ9a8LOPlbvSxItCvIXa8poCfLJXw+V1m7r6WpglnbNRooN9xXa6q94UwAQGRPNdwBmCJDSC-3MpFhIefxWlYuDNNtmIA5U71V4GoJAiJ4WJRZPgWJej3qR2NkXpegycRndWLXrHNnnGxWoT5rdulQrOoP6TKjs95T+CiXWb62ppD2lL30fm3iOHrUG+uMy7JKvQhcZJ7MsiZhASE43pZZteLZRuoS19thoWimCuJKZ08g3snwz-dZonkQ2XmqFl49TmNz7utHS9kp1zr309kHfepq0TvF11-sIr0jv6tt2lFUzgXMalxjU-9RpbQ9DfKu4rRIjfQHVUABHigkdyuwdlJjLm2BoheryglUHaitBOtNGF9uizJbGye-OqR3cfv3gX0gv1ZZ7+AP02krgOO6353R4F0eblajwUZLsjfry66kgj9LDZs-ZE+zlUyWrvMvVfE4CXyEGYF-rvNvY+z7EKpaGi8KpVwLfaVsFZ1aLulhT2BOhEcEflO5nvA5YyCVilfIfUkWhRPjUexxBPX+DW2kPcaoEBws9Mj-L-c91Kn9htGe4IR5wvPB7BeF96ugGOcQNapYxGvo6O6zp2KXo+0Q6tfpCn7W2dnk7F2uHi8UoAC8oepntnEKiPAEClpFTxU5zMs9-Wp2P5frTTaD0jp0YaJr50Lm+QH3a5IO66F7DnmCYcYEw5gqEHYlFwYiI8QAHhMWEMYqcjUH9URAKKM+wwhzNWZQtevsMyWhgnOECSfYSpqwVTjADA4AYjvy3hLAoQxR0BtAlpmts6xcmRzUg14ZQ2fseUSFzgzOZwVvMchprXk0mOdyDYXCpAaTEz5CPVFZ99EUZM+1amIreagmqJQb56aUa2Q8YTKsIuA2gbQJtE1gbYLXJvhtArcJypgrudGFwjwplksF9oauUObebqQBn4VaO6AdVT2PLGu8Vv+vYRvJl5j6trS+7UpVa634BHnbKM52bjxZ6az6oeb-Wqii31jkaAB4MMrWVVSZGNVFJS4XKxU58QM0r98fdIdliR6rVUjXKrDcO13Pah5ueM6PMtGq6PUb6ceOe9yO+3PcDnzcDvwWC2uzeAcsfpuFN1jeKPb-Z1i9k-iaw3NK4Dl+YSMOdR4qah9KE2SwXZDznBpEEj1ZtUS6McKtGHyTLuiw8bnKn3+xXqb-4zuFRpvwll0C7rqErkvouoSuS-hxXQLBhHGfMq4ir90qCAGYn3EP+R5vtAoeQwHDgtCg3SpADyBAmMc5Od4qIELBdcgPAtzIm17A4A+ClQb+sV6BI+ZTDkmNt3oFaEw8LLBP-IA0egWBBAt86lGkorTrGn6ZrkHPsAt4B8o7UP5rgXKsQTnpQHkHyjtQ3oHyDpR3oPx7QDkBWI6xgN08BOWYIxoI6nHKm6AcUcKREAGiB6Cc+CIQGKTyE6AcCeQRRH2FaXZ5UwDq5oL76n4aP4LJiQgI8QQoZm1QDpvs84B5nuANTA6tA8HCB8ROOkjeQfIOkneQ-GdBcqIhOe0geQfJO0jeQfIOkneQ-DsgOSY8AHwt+D4j7oEwZRT+gzX6hNqQnAEkJ5QYFGxDcgWevUBtJeOCskNMzgCmcIypJ88BMjeu1GDQ4nMME4M2JtfNAWGcYF94LUROoAEQQaA7iwYkJ8hDBOz31XWgDpJ3kLyD5B0k-zmQnJqvYnQ2sN7XUxf+P2altEijFuHYawC3aV8n7RYS14+Osbct9WzQet9u1CIg590-b66jWF1Xa5yT6lA9qbPkOkbTJZzZ3NHvFDmPceis4yh2UlAJ4VChZPilp6iDrR-3bxiYq3Ba7J3MF9CRFO4PejnhJzQm-ZYfDyjK+aoUP0rTWtVvWtq0m3SZDV332JBZKbQcsDfGjLPdLUOsLhQS9UHVB1Mfnvrwp-py4LRvAKn6vt2W6utTHJWrqXobTr0K6divIdapvGaBGep2oXqa25cPzYtuv8dF-Dmp87++iHh4m-EY15Hrit6J64qt6WopCwWMLEUI+ewFztcoOy7CrH7evHV5iu01ao7PV-AUz9XGVCL0g6ISm0pqKrWptKYym8pqqmdTvZrq21T9UF8JPYNfrbeOR2f-BcRdlU4=You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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- KVRian
- 710 posts since 7 May, 2002 from Phoenix, Arizona, USA
I just tried to paste it in with the paste button, but didn't work for me this time. Use the attached preset. Can just dragon drop it on the plugin any where.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 587 posts since 8 May, 2012 from E.U.
OK, i tried it but to be honest (as i expected, because i think this is very hard to hack without it being hand-crafted in) i don't find it in any way useable! 
Perhaps i'm doing something wrong. Maybe you could post a before / after example of it doing a good delay midi kill job on a synth sound.
I've made an example using Vengeance Avenger (attached), which has built in midi kill in it's delay.
One MP3 is without delay, the other is with delay and midi kill.
I've used an extremely aggressive delay setting, 100% feedback, so this is an effect that would be impossible (when done with delay) without midi kill.
If you or anyone could hack it and make an example that sounds like THAT, then i'd believe it was possible!
Perhaps i'm doing something wrong. Maybe you could post a before / after example of it doing a good delay midi kill job on a synth sound.
I've made an example using Vengeance Avenger (attached), which has built in midi kill in it's delay.
One MP3 is without delay, the other is with delay and midi kill.
I've used an extremely aggressive delay setting, 100% feedback, so this is an effect that would be impossible (when done with delay) without midi kill.
If you or anyone could hack it and make an example that sounds like THAT, then i'd believe it was possible!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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- KVRian
- 710 posts since 7 May, 2002 from Phoenix, Arizona, USA
Yes the vengeance one sounds great. I have modified the preset a little bit, and it could be useful for something, but the method of toggling the delay tap's enable buttons seem to throw off the sync a little bit, and also sometimes creates a small click (in other presets I have minimized the clicks by modulating very fast the output to silence similtaneously or perhaps slightly before the Enable toggle).
I agree if this was made a native feature it could work better.
I have included audio and the new preset in the zip. MDelayMB was used as a send effect.
I agree if this was made a native feature it could work better.
I have included audio and the new preset in the zip. MDelayMB was used as a send effect.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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- KVRAF
- 2702 posts since 9 Jul, 2015 from UK
Good news on this one Mr D.
I have spoken with Vojtech about implementing midi kill and it is looking likely to happen. Also I have made a preset for you (no midi kill) that can exactly set the length and number of taps for the delay decay. It will be released with MTurboDelay.
I have done 13 presets for it now and it is looking great!
I have spoken with Vojtech about implementing midi kill and it is looking likely to happen. Also I have made a preset for you (no midi kill) that can exactly set the length and number of taps for the delay decay. It will be released with MTurboDelay.
I have done 13 presets for it now and it is looking great!
Jason @ Melda Production
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 587 posts since 8 May, 2012 from E.U.
Excellent stuff!
What would also be great would be if he could include a "level" with the midi kill.
So you could choose to kill the delay but not completely, but down to, say, -20dB or whatever. This would give a lot more creative options, for example with using aggressive feedback and resonance.
Even more amazing would be to also include a "midi kill feedback" setting. So, when midi kill is received, it sets a feedback amount for the delay left over after the kill. So again you could use very aggressive feedback settings, but after the kill it's more gentle feedback, so your delay carries on, but lower in volume and less aggressive. These would allow you to create never heard before rhythmic delays.
Please also ask him to also consider an envelope for the delays, so you could very accurately controls the delays level and number. Say you want to have 3 delays at a very similar volume, then 3 more delays quickly dying away into silence. At the moment this sort of thing isn't really possible. An envelope would give unprecedented control.
Cheers!
What would also be great would be if he could include a "level" with the midi kill.
So you could choose to kill the delay but not completely, but down to, say, -20dB or whatever. This would give a lot more creative options, for example with using aggressive feedback and resonance.
Even more amazing would be to also include a "midi kill feedback" setting. So, when midi kill is received, it sets a feedback amount for the delay left over after the kill. So again you could use very aggressive feedback settings, but after the kill it's more gentle feedback, so your delay carries on, but lower in volume and less aggressive. These would allow you to create never heard before rhythmic delays.
Please also ask him to also consider an envelope for the delays, so you could very accurately controls the delays level and number. Say you want to have 3 delays at a very similar volume, then 3 more delays quickly dying away into silence. At the moment this sort of thing isn't really possible. An envelope would give unprecedented control.
Cheers!