Cinema mix 82db leq with Meldaplugins? / Leq(M) for MLoudnessAnalyzer?

[Tagirijus]

Hey there,

I once mixed a short commercial for cinema and I tried to analyze other cinema mixes and I also could monitor my mix in the cinema compared to others. My result was that I could reach for -20 LUFS to be at the same loudness level as other commercials.

1.
Now my question to all other experienced people in this area: is it even possible to have some similar level in EBU R128 domain like the 82db leq for the cinema commercial mix?

2.
Is it possible to analyze with Meldatools somehow?


Thanks for your answer. I'm very curious!

[Tagirijus]

Still need help and feedback on this. So: bump.

[vectorwarrior]

I'm not sure what you're asking about really. I dont know what you're referring to by '-82dB leq'. Are you referring to the listening/mixing level? Then I can understand your reference to '82dB' (note: not minus)... although typically film mixing is done at 85. I work in video games, where 79dB is more common.

If I'm correct with the above assumption that you're referring to LISTENING level, I had a little google and this was probably the best 'overview' page I could find about it: http://www.playdotsound.com/portfolio-i ... -monitors/

[Tagirijus]

Are you referring to the listening/mixing level? Then I can understand your reference to '82dB' (note: not minus)... although typically film mixing is done at 85.

Yeah, sorry. Seems like it's not with the minus, hehe. And how I understand this: it's about the measured loudness. According to what I found in the web: 82db leq is for commercials and 85db leq is for trailers.

I work in video games, where 79dB is more common.

I did not know that. Good to know, thanks!

If I'm correct with the above assumption that you're referring to LISTENING level, I had a little google and this was probably the best 'overview' page I could find about it: http://www.playdotsound.com/portfolio-i ... -monitors/

No, this is not really what I was looking for. I really would like to know how to measure the loudness in db leq, instead of maybe LUFS. I found that there is Waves WLM and Dolby Media Meter, but I'd like to know if it could still be done in Melda tools, though. Or maybe Vojtech planned something like this? I also did not really find some equivalents in db Leq <-> LUFS. Probably due to the difference in measurement, right?

[vectorwarrior]

Ah, so you aren't talking listening levels. Then yeah, dB leq is similar to LUFS in that it's built for average program volume, but values will be inconsistent based on what you're listening to, so unfortunately it wouldn't be a case of 'add 70 to the LUFS' I've not used it before, but it's a strict spec and I believe made by Dolby, so Melda would likely need to know the specs as it's probably not publicly known.

You may need to just get the Waves plug unfortunately.

[Tagirijus]

Thanks for your reply. Aren't the specs public? This would be very heavy. ... since you'd have definitely to pay, just to get a cinema conform mix. Hm.

Yesterday I found this: http://www.tb-software.com/TBProAudio/dpmeterxt.html ... I am checking this out now. Maybe this can help a bit.

@Waves: I really want to avoid using their plugins, while I do not want to start a war about which company is better now, hehe.

Thanks again for our effort!

[Tagirijus]

I think I understand now that there is nothing special after all. There are just different filter weightings or so, which are being used for measuring the loudness, right?

Maybe I could start a feature request for MLoudnessAnalyzer then to also include different weighting filters / filter modes like "Leq(A)" or "Leq(M)" as well. According to dpMeterXT, EBU R128 uses Leq(K). Or would this make no sense at all and it is more complex than I cam able to understand right now?

[vectorwarrior]

Yeah, my understanding was the difference was the filter used to represent human hearing. The problem is, if you dont get it exactly right then the data is going to be wrong... and Dolby may require Melda to buy a license as, generally, license costs are how they make their money. But I could be wrong. If Vojtech is up for it, it would be great to find out.

It's worth noting that the TB meter is 80 euros, one of their more expensive plugins, so that makes me think there is license fees involved for developers, but hopefully not!

For what it's worth, I totally agree about Waves. I've replaced all my Waves plugins with Melda... except the L316 which I haven't been able to replicate effectively and I just can't quit!

[Tagirijus]

and Dolby may require Melda to buy a license as, generally, license costs are how they make their money.

Yeah, hopefully not.

For what it's worth, I totally agree about Waves. I've replaced all my Waves plugins with Melda... except the L316 which I haven't been able to replicate effectively and I just can't quit!

You're quite a nice person.

[Tagirijus]

I changed the title a bit. So Vojtech, would it be possible to add something like Leq(M) to MLoundessAnalyzer to be able to mix / master for theatres as well?

[MeldaProduction]

I'm afraid hardly. I don't really know pretty much anything about Leq(M), and as stated it may even require a licence... No time, sorry tagirijus.

[Tagirijus]

Okaaay. Thanks for the reply though.

[Panagiotis Kouvelis]

What you are referring to is a standard of loudness measurement that is used in post production to submit trailers that conform to industry standards.

The TASA organization uses them to be able to provide content creators with an industry standard and broadcasters and theaters with trailers that can playback without audiences complaining fro sudden changes or bad sound management between the trailers and the main program.

You can read more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_lev ... ound_level

And the TASA page that explains the use is here: http://tasatrailers.org/whatis.html

The Wikipedia page also has the technical references, I don't think that the measurements are protected as an intellectual property, as Leq measurements of various types are also used in environmental audio agencies and city ambient noise control or working environment noise control.

Here is a high level explanation of the concept: https://knowledge.ni.com/KnowledgeArtic ... 0019N3eSAE

Leq measurements can be used in various scenarios, but music producers don't usually use it. Sound designers on the other side get more and more excited with new and old measurement methods, as they bring fresh insights on our work and in the various applications that the future holds for our profession. Soundscapes simulation for serious VR games, industrial sound design for gadgets and internet of things, augmented reality for architecture, are some of the sectors that those measurements can give very clear picture of our sound performance.

Some interesting methods of measuring sound are:

Leq
Crest factor (especially not as dBs)
RMS with variable time window sizes after various loudness contour curves
The Bark scale
And more...

By the way, regarding setting the monitor levels on a studio, I use a 85dB measurement as reference, also doing game audio for around 23-25 years now (my first sound design for a game was in DOS). And I set the meter's filter to "Type C". The difference if you like to set your own levels, is that 85dBC is used for movies and music and the 78dBC is used for broadcasting (and some times for games also). It's up to you to decide what you would like to follow, as you can do your own demos and listen to them through tablets, phones, handhelds, consoles and other gaming platforms, and see how your setup behaves with the way you work.

Hope I shed some light on the subjects

[Tagirijus]

Thanks for your explanation.

[MeldaProduction]

Hmmm, thanks for the explanation. There seems to be a lot to study, not sure when I'll have time for that, but I'll try