Making music vs Performing It

[bermudagold]

These guys are in DC tonight. Might go check em out. Interesting to see different takes on how music primarily created on computers and/or made solo can be translated into a compelling live show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiRUrbgMxRo

As more music is being made by people who don't play traditional instruments, and made solo without the collaborative dynamism of multiple people in a band.....what makes something live show worthy?
I've been to a few shows in the last month experimenting/struggling with this. This guy below had tons of sound sources and manipulators on stage, appeared to basically press play on his track, and then jumped around grabbing different devices and overdubbing live on top of his track...his show I saw was different from this demo, but you get the idea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqh0hWE18lc

.....sometimes some of these guys are literally doing instrumental lip-syncing....the vocals are often so computer effected and edited that they aren't even a remote facsimile live of the record....lots of time not even really intelligible.....or they resort to overdubbing live or worst lip-syncing.....this artist "crooked colours" had more members and even more gear on stage, but didn't really achieve band dynamism...."shabazz palaces" wasn't any better....actually left that one early
Do people want the live show to sound just like the record? ...do people want a version of the record that just sounds more loose, more human?....do people actually want a performance of the record that expands on the record or takes it in a new direction?....or do people just want to enjoy a communal experience being in the same room with the artist and other fans of the music to just listen and dance and don't really care what the artist does on stage? ....I think the answers to these questions will be interesting moving forward with the changes to music creation methods and music industry revenue streams......What is the minimum value added proposition for the time and money spent to see an artist live becoming compelling?...i'm old school, so when I spend money I still have some old expectations lol

[vurt]

if you enjoy the music, meeting others who enjoy the same? being in the moment?


i believe this is the kind of thing humans enjoy?

[pljones]

You can sit in a lounge with a bunch of people all listening to the same music. You can dance at a club, all getting the vibe of the same music. Is it different if the music you're hearing is a recording - one that's taking no notice of you as you enjoy it?

I think it does make a difference -- particularly as I don't go to performances or clubs, just listen to live recordings. I can hear the difference when performers are experiencing the audience, the environment they're in, and changing how they perform. That's what I'm after.

On the point of "can you make it sound like the record"... well, different strokes, I guess. For me, it doesn't matter -- I'd rather performers did what they felt like doing and felt connected with an audience. If they just turn up and sound as remote as on the record, even it's not like the original, it tends not to add anything for me -- I really am looking for a different dimension, like I say.

[funky lime]

The internet has enabled a generation of performers who focus on virtuosity, and has bolstered a whole "look what I can do" culture. You can see it in those videos where it's like "world's fastest violin player" or "4 year old shreds better than satch" (paraphrasing here but you get the idea) where musicality takes a back seat to technical ability.

So with home recording technology becoming so widely accessible and inexpensive in the last twenty years or so, a lot of artists can realize visions that were previously logistically and/or financially impossible for them. I think it's only natural that some of them would take it to the stage. The thing is, with all these "new" artists exploding onto the scene, the level of competition increased. It's not about writing better music, it's about being more impressive, because now anyone can just make good-sounding music at home, so you really have to stand out in some other way, such as the performance aspect.

We're shifting away from "impress them with your composition" to "impress them with your technical abilities," and for many, that means impressing with your ability to work the technology to enable you to realize your vision without having to hire other musicians or deal with the headaches of leading a band whose sole directive is to fulfill your specific desires.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mudDt2v41c

Jacob Collier is pretty amazing. He mostly does covers, alone. But his live performances, at least the ones in the style of this one, lean so heavily on a very thorough understanding of the technology, using loops and canned backing tracks, and it really just becomes a display of "look how I can do all this without any help" rather than trying to form a real connection with the audience in the way, for example, a folk singer might. I absolutely adore his videos, and somehow simultaneously find them offputting, because I feel like a lot of his talent manifests in the form of 14-part vocal harmonies and a note-salad of several instruments at once, which are crazy and impressive but show a total lack of restraint. The video I linked above is really one of his most "subdued" performances I've watched, but when he gets to that keyboard solo in the middle, it's like... "why?"

[herodotus]

The internet has enabled a generation of performers who focus on virtuosity, and has bolstered a whole "look what I can do" culture. You can see it in those videos where it's like "world's fastest violin player" or "4 year old shreds better than satch" (paraphrasing here but you get the idea) where musicality takes a back seat to technical ability.

So with home recording technology becoming so widely accessible and inexpensive in the last twenty years or so, a lot of artists can realize visions that were previously logistically and/or financially impossible for them. I think it's only natural that some of them would take it to the stage. The thing is, with all these "new" artists exploding onto the scene, the level of competition increased. It's not about writing better music, it's about being more impressive, because now anyone can just make good-sounding music at home, so you really have to stand out in some other way, such as the performance aspect.

We're shifting away from "impress them with your composition" to "impress them with your technical abilities,"

The internet has enabled many things, but the notion that the big problem is virtuosity versus composition seems....strained to me.

People like to show off, of course. And the ones who can play will obviously show this off. But I have seen quite a few music videos on YouTube, and 'virtuosity' was far from being the most common element. Mostly I have seen people who never should have made any attempt at music at all.

And performers have always outnumbered composers. That's why it takes 90 people to play a symphony that one person wrote.

[jancivil]

because now anyone can just make good-sounding music at home, so...

I get a rather strong sense here that your definition of 'good-sounding' is different from my own.

[bermudagold]

[quote="funky lime"][/quote]

Interesting addition and perspective....thanks for that....based on the reviews, it's also noteworthy how polarizing his take on these ideas is, and how passionate his fans and detractors are....I didnt realize there was as much disparity between what resonates with people as to what makes a record great, and even more disparity between what resonates with people as to what makes a live performance great......
Also that his harmonizer rig was developed with a Phd at MIT Media Lab just for him

[funky lime]

The internet has enabled a generation of performers who focus on virtuosity, and has bolstered a whole "look what I can do" culture. You can see it in those videos where it's like "world's fastest violin player" or "4 year old shreds better than satch" (paraphrasing here but you get the idea) where musicality takes a back seat to technical ability.

So with home recording technology becoming so widely accessible and inexpensive in the last twenty years or so, a lot of artists can realize visions that were previously logistically and/or financially impossible for them. I think it's only natural that some of them would take it to the stage. The thing is, with all these "new" artists exploding onto the scene, the level of competition increased. It's not about writing better music, it's about being more impressive, because now anyone can just make good-sounding music at home, so you really have to stand out in some other way, such as the performance aspect.

We're shifting away from "impress them with your composition" to "impress them with your technical abilities,"

The internet has enabled many things, but the notion that the big problem is virtuosity versus composition seems....strained to me.

People like to show off, of course. And the ones who can play will obviously show this off. But I have seen quite a few music videos on YouTube, and 'virtuosity' was far from being the most common element. Mostly I have seen people who never should have made any attempt at music at all.

And performers have always outnumbered composers. That's why it takes 90 people to play a symphony that one person wrote.

I shouldn't have said virtuosity. I meant presentation, really.

I just meant that in terms of popularity on the internet, or "going viral," seems to depend more on presentation than actual subject matter. "4 year old plays mozart" is going to get more views than "40 year old plays mozart" even if it's the exact same sonata, the same piano, the same recording quality, etc.

Likewise, "guy plays 4 instruments at the same time" is likely going to generate more buzz than "guy plays 2 instruments at the same time." But maybe that's just the redditor in me. Of course, everyone is going to be looking for something different.

It seems like it's not enough to simply write outstanding music, because people want to be impressed. And while a cleverly-crafted song might be really interesting to other musicians, a non-musician might just write it off as egg-headed, over-complicated, self-important, etc. I think people want to be able to relate to stuff or be inspired by it, rather than made to feel stupid, confused, or inadequate by it.

I get a rather strong sense here that your definition of 'good-sounding' is different from my own.

I just meant production value. Spending a few hundred dollars today gets you a much higher quality rig than it did, say, twenty years ago, even accounting for inflation. And the educational resources to actually learn how to properly use the equipment are a lot more plentiful nowadays, and are often free. Well-written music, on the other hand, is an entirely different subject, which I did not mean to include in my statement.

Also, I said "anyone can," rather than "everyone does."

.I didnt realize there was as much disparity between what resonates with people as to what makes a record great, and even more disparity between what resonates with people as to what makes a live performance great......

In the video I linked, it's interesting how he starts the song doing the whole one-man-band looping thing to say "look how I could be doing it" but then very quickly fades into "press play on a backing track and sing/play bass over it." At that point, I'd rather just listen to an album, but that's just my opinion. (side note: there's already bass in the backing track if you listen closely, and he still plays bass over top of it, seemingly just for the purpose of showmanship). I'd rather hear a reduction of the song that can be performed live entirely by just the musos on stage. Because with Jacob in particular, I know he could get up there without that complex rig, and just jam on an acoustic guitar and still make it all sound magical. Regardless, it's still really well made, and I'm always fascinated by how he makes it all seem so effortless.

It is an interesting choice though; people want to show off what they're capable of, and for many people, the studio/DAW itself is treated like instrument. So yes, like you said, it all has to do with what resonates with people as to what makes a performance great/grate. It's pretty cool nowadays that you can take your whole studio on stage and play it, but I don't want to go to see a symphony and have it all be a bunch of laptop jockeys playing VSL samples through a PA in a concert hall. Maybe I'm old fashioned.

(actually, that might be kind of cool, if just as a novelty)

[jancivil]

We're shifting away from "impress them with your composition" to "impress them with your technical abilities," and for many, that means impressing with your ability to work the technology to enable you to realize your vision without having to hire other musicians or deal with the headaches of leading a band whose sole directive is to fulfill your specific desires.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mudDt2v41c

Yes. But wait:

Jacob Collier is pretty amazing.

Really? How.

keyboard solo
it's like... "why?"

Shorter, easier to swallow version:

I may be too quick to judge but life is short, what I heard was facile and shallow and the impression I got was 'Son, live life for a little while and gain experiences', and as we would say in Oaktown "Don't do too much."
It's all like that keyboard solo. For me, deciding 'better give it a chance' I needle-dropped in a number of places.

I tend to reject the whole "What about AI for creating music." notion, certainly insofar as what AI is today anyway. Here's the thing: it would be just like this Jason Collier once achieved.

[bermudagold]

[quote="funky lime"] where musicality takes a back seat to technical ability.[quote="funky lime"]

Definitely seen examples of this too

[quote="funky lime"] It's not about writing better music, it's about being more impressive, because now anyone can just make good-sounding music at home, so you really have to stand out in some other way, such as the performance aspect. [quote="funky lime"]

all different flavors of gimmickery have always been effective at drawing attention to people's music, but with the noise floor being so high today, I wouldn't be surprised if their use increases

[quote="funky lime"] At that point, I'd rather just listen to an album, [quote="funky lime"]
Exactly...I may be in that camp as well,....I wonder what percentage don't mind going to a live show and getting that

[quote="funky lime"] I don't want to go to see a symphony and have it all be a bunch of laptop jockeys playing VSL samples through a PA in a concert hall. [quote="funky lime"]
I'd actually be surprised if that hasn't been done yet.....and curious what it would sound like live

[bermudagold]

I find it unbearable from the get-go. It's a big"why" from 0:00 onward for me.

lol...fascinatingly polarizing.....my favorite comment from that video is the following .....
"the juxtaposition of extraordinary musicianship and god awful tastelessness leaves me feeling extremely uncomfortable... I think the best purpose this music serves is to induce vomiting. I also think that if a super intelligent alien robot who had never heard music before tried to make music, it would sound like this."
OUCH!

[funky lime]

Jacob Collier is pretty amazing.

Really? How.

I'd say check out the videos where he is interviewed by June Lee, but I get the impression you probably know it all already. They talk about some pretty interesting topics (in my unwashed, unlearned opinion anyway) like groove subdivision (3-numbered time signatures like 5/4/4 for instance), negative harmony (the "undertone" series), microtonal voice leading, and some other neat stuff. Whether you like his music or not, it's clear that he is super passionate about it and basically devotes his whole life toward it, and loves to share his knowledge with everybody while remaining humble and approachable. And I find that inspiring.

I tend to reject the whole "What about AI for creating music." notion, certainly insofar as what AI is today anyway. Here's the thing: it would be just like this Jason Collier once achieved.

Interesting that you would, with such certainty, form such a strong opinion about him after admitting you didn't even listen to a single song of his in its entirety. I could needle drop Greggery Peccary for a few seconds and form an unyielding conclusion that Frank Zappa is terrible, but to me that seems like a rather shallow way to evaluate the merit of an artist.

There is a lot of "noise," yes, but there are so many moments of cleverness and magic, for lack of a better word, buried within, that it takes a few listens to understand them all. His take on Gershwin's "Fascinating Rhythm" is very excessive; it's also very intricate and clever (you'd hate it ), and in between those moments of tastelessness, there are bits that give me goosebumps. You gotta listen the whole way through the song to hear them, however.

Anyway, sorry for going so far off topic.

[donkey tugger]

Bejesus, I just played a bit of that video.

Some lad gurning whilst singing 'Close To You' by The Carpenters (a marvellous song which he shouldn't have been let anywhere near) through a vocoder and playing horrific 'fusion' bass at the same time.

As they say, it takes all sorts..

[jancivil]

The thing which impoverishes Jason Collier, so obviously, is the lack of exchange with other musicians.
Jazz is exactly the wrong platform for a guy doing all the parts himself.
I've been accused of doing "jazz opera" {in teh DAW environment} but I wouldn't think to put it in that bin for this very reason; except maybe the one where I hired a saxophonist, and he has it on his Soundcloud, he's totally a jazz cat, so who knows. People believe it's live music. His remote session probably was single takes, he wasn't going to kill himself over $100.


I have a performance background. When I moved from trying stupidly to be a concert soloist into the notion I would write my own music, getting a show together was the primary way to get something together, so I could work in reality instead of in my head. Nonetheless I wrote a lot of abstract music I'll never hear on paper. I coveted sequencers in a big way by the late 1980s.
Anyway, to get to this point where I'm exposed to better musicians, all the time dwarfed by people who had real business being there at conservatory, I developed enough wherewithal to pass a couple auditions, and I stuck with it for a couple years. Eventually I found like minds in SF and we did some things, some shows.

SO: the notion that a whole lot of people think empty virtuosity is "amazing" is not anything to me.
I'll give y'all an anecdote. I had a friend from my home town who went to CCM before me. This is where I heard of the guitar program, which was rare at the time. He could play fast; he could play fake McLaughlin or DiMeola kind of scalar stuff; he was a musical jock essentially. So he gravitated to the showy pieces.
Ok. Now we have a master class with Oscar Ghiglia. Mark didn't care for Ghiglia's recordings of particular things. So he plays Tarantella by Castellnuovo-Tedesco. WAY too fast. Pointlessly fast, unmusically fast. And Ghiglia just reams him, about trying to impress him and impress everyone with the speed while it's empty of style, and so fast no one can know if the musical decisions are well-considered or not. "NO ONE is impressed!"

That's real. He was right. This was my best friend at the time, but there was no denying how right Ghiglia was. Youtube million views for some nonsense is, I don't know what it is but people with knowledge and with any wisdom know better. If the millions of views for garbage rules the world, fine. It doesn't change what is real in music.

Anyway, here's something written for and realized on the Synclavier as a finished piece nonetheless performed live on a stage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE7iTTDZeF4
It'll never get the million views.

[jancivil]

I find it unbearable from the get-go. It's a big"why" from 0:00 onward for me.

lol...fascinatingly polarizing.....my favorite comment from that video is the following .....
"the juxtaposition of extraordinary musicianship and god awful tastelesslness leaves me feeling extremely uncomfortable... I think the best purpose this music serves is to induce vomiting. I also think that if a super intelligent alien robot who had never heard music before tried to make music, it would sound like this."
OUCH!

Yeah, except for the "extraordinary musicianship". He gets around well on some instruments.
Again, when AI is happening to the extent it's supposed to do jazz, here it is. Mr. Data on all instruments.
It's distressing to see such rave reviews and a bunch of people falling for this.

I have the power to polarize? I doubt my view has any impact, end of the day.