Korg updates its Legacy Collection with a new Arp Odyssey emulation

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BONES
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7200 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:44 pm

EnGee wrote:No BONES! PPI does matter, but to a degree. My phone is not AMLOD AMOLED or iPhone. It's just a Chinese Xioami phone. The screen is sharp and the fonts are very clear because it's ~401 ppi (the screen). It's similar to dots per inch but not identical.
Trust me, a screen of equal quality at half the dpi (I know it's ppi but in the industry we still call it dpi, just so everyone gets it straight away) would still look amazing. It looks good because it's the latest tech. The dpi thing will help to a degree but not as much as you think.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, Win10), Zoom U24, Orion 64 bit, Maschine Mikro, Elektron Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket, MicroMonsta, Uno

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BONES
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7200 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Korg updates its Legacy Collection with a new Arp Odyssey emulation

Post Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:45 pm

I'm not trying to be a dick but a few things said here are just wrong, or at least explained in a way that is totally misleading. Below I will try to correct those things, with examples where I can. No names, just the facts. And before you try to argue back, understand that I've been doing this for more than 20 years and for about a third of that time it was my job to know this stuff so I could advise and train our customers about it. To be fair, I've never had to deal with all the crap that goes on with high DPI images inside an application, only on how screen technology affects what we see and how we see it.
On devices with low PPI, antialiasing helps the cosmetic appearance of text at certain sizes (get too small and it's disabled because all it does is make the text blurry, harming readability). It sometimes helps readability for some people, but some people also hate antialiasing (I'm not one of them).
However, the higher the display PPI, the more pixels you have to work with, and the less antialiasing is actually needed (and becomes invisible to the human eye or can be left out entirely).
Anti-aliasing ALWAYS makes vectors (like text), look better. It's just at high dpi the effect is more subtle because adjacent pixels are closer together. In fact, anti-aliasing benefits from high dpi screens because it can be applied more aggressively (different algorithms) and noticed less.
Because desktop computer displays historically had 96 pixels per inch or less (72 and less in fairly old stuff), the pixels are too large and too few to fool the eyes into seeing smooth curves. Antialiasing was invented to improve the cosmetics (and sometimes readability) of the many curves used in text on a low PPI display.
Sorry but that's not how it has ever worked. Historically, computer displays were CRTs which don't have any pixels at all. CRTs are analogue devices, it's just that computers spit digital stuff at them so you end up viewing pixels because that's what the computer generates. So even 25 years ago it would have been possible to run a tiny CRT (e.g. a point-of-sale screen) at 4k or even higher resolution, if you had enough graphics power to make it work. Displays only became digital when we transitioned from CRT to flat-screens. Since then it has been preferable to match the computer's output resolution to the screen's fixed pixel resolution. In the early days they weren't great - backlighting was poor and it was hard to get good screen contrast or bright colours. But things have improved immeasurably since those days.

PPI on a flat panel monitor is widely variable. e.g. Whether I look at the output of my Surface Pro on it's 10.5" screen or on my 32" TV, it is still putting out 1920 pixels by 1080 pixels. Therefore, the PPI in one is completely different to the other. The 72/96 dpi thing is something the OS uses internally to work out the relative size of bitmaps on screen, it doesn't necessarily relate to the actual PPI you see when you look at it on a monitor.
Antialiasing smooths the staircase appearance (aliasing) by inserting extra pixels into the empty 90° spaces between the point-to-point arranged pixels.
This is not how anti-aliasing works, simply because there is nowhere to get "extra pixels" from to insert anywhere. What anti-aliasing does is it smooths sharp boundaries between colours by mixing them together at the edges. e.g. If I have a white line on a black background, anti-aliasing will take the pixels on the edge and blend them, so you get a row of pixels that are grey. Depending on the type of screen and the algorithm used, you might get the edge of the black turned to dark grey and the edge of the white turned to light grey or it may turn one or the other edge into 50% grey. On a high PPI screen you may even get multiple rows of pixels on the edge being recoloured for a super-smooth edge that would look soft and blurry on a less dense screen. I've made this image in Photoshop, where I can use different AA algorithms to get the effect I want. It's white text on a black background. I zoomed in 1000% and took screenshots so you can see the effect on individual pixels. The left side shows no AA, the centre one uses the "Crisp" setting most people usually use and the right hand one uses the "Mac LCD" setting, which is the softest available.

https://imgur.com/a/pW3fAXW

Hmmm... it looks like KVR won't display images from Imgur for some reason, so you'll have to go and look at it instead. But you can clearly see how it has made some of the pixels around the edges grey to make it look smoother and more rounded. If you zoom out to 10%, you'll see it as it was originally created.
This is subjective. BONES' opinion on what constitutes "amazing clarity" is entirely different from my own. Fair enough.
The whole idea of the ClearType utility (not the use of ClearType in the OS itself, but the calibration utility you use to personalise the experience) is to take into account everyone's different eyesight and produce the perfect result for YOU. For your eyes. So it is only subjective in that it understands we all have different vision and what works for me might not look good to you. But if yours isn't perfect for YOU when you're done, it's because you didn't do it properly. Seriously, it's like the difference between going to an optometrist and getting a pair of prescription glasses tailored to your own vision and using those $5 glasses you can buy at a petrol station that just magnify everything. In fact the process is very similar to an eye test - it shows you two lines of text and you pick the one you think looks best, then repeat the process a few more times until everything is properly optimised. It has to be better than a one-size-fits-all approach like you get in every other OS.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, Win10), Zoom U24, Orion 64 bit, Maschine Mikro, Elektron Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket, MicroMonsta, Uno

EnGee
KVRAF
5022 posts since 7 Oct, 2005

Re: Korg updates its Legacy Collection with a new Arp Odyssey emulation

Post Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:00 pm

Well, I could save half the price of the 32" Viewsonic i mentioned earlier, so mostly this what I'm going with after one month I suppose. It's 2k resolution, so it's a good compromise between overall space and bitmap graphics size based soft viewing.
I'll bring it forward a little bit so the distance would be less than one metre ;)

Anyway, I've not stopped using the VA synths. The sound is so good to me that I forgive the 90's GUI :)

Thanks for all discussing. That made me read and compare more (and measure my place!). I can see the points that both Jace and Bones make. Both have some valid points, and for me it's the balance between size, native resolution and the distance from the monitor or TV. All contribute to the final result in finding a workaround for outdated GUI synths :mad:
Let's donate to help the kids and save our planet.
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Windows 10 & Maschine 2

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4716 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Korg updates its Legacy Collection with a new Arp Odyssey emulation

Post Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:07 pm

I cannot be arsed to respond to the "corrections" since my text has been intentionally misinterpreted so it could be "corrected". Have fun everyone.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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BONES
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7200 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Korg updates its Legacy Collection with a new Arp Odyssey emulation

Post Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:25 pm

Very gracious of you. Like I said, maybe you didn't express yourself very well but the way I interpreted it is the way it reads.
EnGee wrote: All contribute to the final result in finding a workaround for outdated GUI synths :mad:
I don't think they are outdated, they weren't popular from the day they were released and there was never any clear reason for it, beyond making them identical to the original hardware. The frustrating thing is that they got little bits right here and there but cocked it up royally in other areas.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, Win10), Zoom U24, Orion 64 bit, Maschine Mikro, Elektron Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket, MicroMonsta, Uno

EnGee
KVRAF
5022 posts since 7 Oct, 2005

Re: Korg updates its Legacy Collection with a new Arp Odyssey emulation

Post Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:38 pm

I didn’t have a problem with them in my old laptop (1366x768). They look great (part of the scrolling in MS-20), but I want to use one computer and one monitor for everything (old plugs and new, reading and gaming). This is why one solution fits all is not easy to accomplish, especially when having limited budget :hihi: But I’m getting there soon 8)
Let's donate to help the kids and save our planet.
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Windows 10 & Maschine 2

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martinjuenke
KVRAF
2491 posts since 28 Dec, 2015 from Germany

Re: Korg updates its Legacy Collection with a new Arp Odyssey emulation

Post Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:24 pm

Doors
Waiting For The Sun


At first flash of Eden, we race down to the sea.
Standing there on Freedom's Shore.
Waiting for the Sun
Can you feel it now that spring has come.
And it's time to live in the scattered sun.
Waiting for the Sun
Waiting.... Waiting.... Waiting.... Waiting....
Waiting for you to - come along
Waiting for you to - hear my song
Waiting for you to - come along
Waiting for you to - tell me what went wrong
This is the strangest life I've ever known.
Yeah!
Can you feel it now that spring has come.
And it's time to live in the scattered sun.
Waiting for the Sun
Waiting... For... The suuuuun.
:phones:

Flowing atmospheric music
http://www.sonoryth.bandcamp.com/music

v1o
KVRian
1220 posts since 2 Oct, 2004

Re: Korg updates its Legacy Collection with a new Arp Odyssey emulation

Post Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:25 am

Korg are having a sale at the moment. 50% off. I have have the full version of the Legacy M1 (not the LE version), what is the cheapest upgrade path to the collection?

And how come no ones talks about the Legacy Arp Odyssey (like they do Repro 5 and Monark)? Is it not that good.
Orion Platinum, Muzys 2

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Ghost Dog
KVRist
136 posts since 2 Jun, 2015 from Belgrade, Serbia

Re: Korg updates its Legacy Collection with a new Arp Odyssey emulation

Post Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:09 am

IMHO, people kinda view it as an unnecessary product.

Maybe I'm mistaken; who knows?!

jdoo
KVRist
426 posts since 23 Dec, 2011

Re: Korg updates its Legacy Collection with a new Arp Odyssey emulation

Post Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:11 pm

v1o wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:25 am
Korg are having a sale at the moment. 50% off. I have have the full version of the Legacy M1 (not the LE version), what is the cheapest upgrade path to the collection?

And how come no ones talks about the Legacy Arp Odyssey (like they do Repro 5 and Monark)? Is it not that good.
There was a pretty substantial thread on the Leagacy release (with several posts, specifically about the Odyssey) when it came out.. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=496920&hilit=korg

Stefken
KVRian
656 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Re: Korg updates its Legacy Collection with a new Arp Odyssey emulation

Post Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:12 pm

It's certainly a good synth.

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layzer
KVRAF
5740 posts since 11 Jun, 2006

Re: Korg updates its Legacy Collection with a new Arp Odyssey emulation

Post Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:16 pm

Ghost Dog wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:09 am
IMHO, people kinda view it as an unnecessary product.

Maybe I'm mistaken; who knows?!
yeah, like cars, but people still use them.... :roll:
HW SYNTHS [KORG T2EX - AKAI AX80 - YAMAHA SY77 - ENSONIQ VFX]
HW MODULES [OBi M1000 - ROLAND MKS-50 - ROLAND JV880 - KURZ 1000PX]
SW [CHARLATAN - OBXD - OXE - ELEKTRO - MICROTERA - M1 - SURGE - RMiV]
DAW [ENERGY XT2/1U RACK WINXP / MAUDIO 1010LT PCI]

Watchful
KVRist
118 posts since 9 Jan, 2018

Re: Korg updates its Legacy Collection with a new Arp Odyssey emulation

Post Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:28 pm

ARP Odyssey is great. I understand some folks find it a little resource heavy, but it hasn't been so in my case at all. It lets you change which version you're using (skin changes, as well as the filter type), and it's close enough that I've been able to recreate a few of the original Odyssey patches on it back from the days when you wrote the settings down on paper.

You should be aware that the Odyssey is 64-bit only.

I originally bought whole suite because I wanted the M1, the Wavestation, and the Odyssey...and as a result got the Polysix and Mono/Poly and MS-20 for free with last year's 50% off sale. Haven't had any issues with the 64-bit versions of these at all under Windows 10, and use them quite a lot and often quite heavily.

The whole suite is really well done, although I do concur the graphics could be updated for modern monitors.

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Harry_HH
KVRAF
3053 posts since 4 Aug, 2006 from Helsinki

Re: Korg updates its Legacy Collection with a new Arp Odyssey emulation

Post Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:37 pm

Watchful wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:28 pm
ARP Odyssey is great. I understand some folks find it a little resource heavy, but it hasn't been so in my case at all. It lets you change which version you're using (skin changes, as well as the filter type), and it's close enough that I've been able to recreate a few of the original Odyssey patches on it back from the days when you wrote the settings down on paper.

You should be aware that the Odyssey is 64-bit only.

I originally bought whole suite because I wanted the M1, the Wavestation, and the Odyssey...and as a result got the Polysix and Mono/Poly and MS-20 for free with last year's 50% off sale. Haven't had any issues with the 64-bit versions of these at all under Windows 10, and use them quite a lot and often quite heavily.

The whole suite is really well done, although I do concur the graphics could be updated for modern monitors.
"... understand some folks find it a little resource heavy..".
Its like saying "I understand some folks think, that Pol Pot was a little naughty boy, but for me he didn't do any harm". :dog:

For my i7 laptop, many of the Odyssey presets are hitting constantly 120+ % CPU. Totally useless.

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BONES
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7200 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Korg updates its Legacy Collection with a new Arp Odyssey emulation

Post Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:02 pm

Yeah, I love the Odyssey's sound and it is really easy to sit into a mix but there is no ignoring the fact it uses two or three times as much CPU as my next most CPU-intensive plugin. I have to be really sure it's the right sound before I stick with it in a big arrangement. It's quirky layout, true to the original, also takes a bit of getting used to. If they could somehow get the CPU usage down, I'd use it a lot more.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, Win10), Zoom U24, Orion 64 bit, Maschine Mikro, Elektron Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket, MicroMonsta, Uno

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