The Wagtunes Corner (Featuring My Best Yet)

[experimental.crow]

Honestly... It's pretty much got all the same fundamental problems. Maybe 3% better? i think you're focusing too much on the minutiae and not enough on the bigger picture.

The arrangement is very problematic, with very basic phrasing that does the piece no favours. And alas it's still got that GM vibe. You have to figure out how to add expression via CC, and also figure out more realistic parts that sound like they could be played by the actual instruments, and orchestrated in a more sympathetic fashion.

But truly, I'm willing you to keep at it. You're investing so much money in kit, you owe it to yourself to invest huge amounts of time in learning the skills to make the most of it all.

My $0.02 etc etc

Tell you what. Since you're the expert, I'll give you the stems for the piano, vocal and drums and you write an orchestral arrangement for it that's actually good. Send me the MIDI and I'll adapt it to VSL.

Ultimately, isn't that what we're trying to do here? Be helpful to the people making these creations? I mean they're not posting these things for their health. At least I don't think they are. I think they'd like to get some kind of helpful feedback. I liked it, didn't like it, isn't very helpful.

so , steven ...
you get some feedback beyond ' i liked it , i didn't like it ' , and you get confrontational ...

I guess that is the assumption I am under that those who post here would like some kind of feedback. I don't get a hell of a lot of it but let me tell you, when I do, I REALLY appreciate it. Otherwise, why do I bother? I don't need to post my tracks here for me to hear 'em. I can do that on my Windows Media Player. But yeah, it's nice when somebody says, hell, anything. Because anything is still better than total silence.

you REALLY appreciate it ?..
hate to see you get bent out of shape ...

But maybe that's just me. Maybe nobody else gives a crap if people comment on their stuff. I don't know. I grew up during an era when you played something for somebody and they said something about it. There was some kind of feedback, even if it was just one word like "cool." At the time, when my friends would say stuff like "That's really bad" I didn't realize how great that was because had I had the wisdom to be able to take that feedback and try to get a little deeper analysis, I might have improved faster than I did and not take 40 years to at least sound decent.

So yeah, if I post something and somebody makes a comment. I'm grateful.

this is you , grateful ?..

That's what I loved about my music courses in college. You got real honest feedback. Here, you don't know if somebody is being nice to you because, well, for whatever reason or if they're tearing the crap out of your stuff because they're just plain jerks. That's why I try to be as honest as I can with my comments. And I've found that some people don't handle honesty well at all. But that's another can of worms.

some people don't handle honesty well at all ?..
mirror , meet steven ...

Well, I didn't have that problem with my mother. She was totally honest about my work. When I was doing alternative experimental stuff early on, which was basically a loop played over and over, she'd say to me "Steven, it's time to get off the merry-go-round." I knew I could always go to mom for the truth. So when I played for her "And The Angels Sing" and she said "This song is touched by God" I knew I had something. I ended up getting a song contract with a pretty good publisher and the song almost got recorded by Crystal Gale making her comeback. That was as close as I ever got to any kind of success. But I only did because mom recognized something that I myself couldn't

Of course mom was also a musician with a very open mind.

really , steven ...
do you ever bother to read what you write ?...
btw :
i once saw bob hope , in the miami airport ...
that's as close to any kind of success i've ever been ...

[wagtunes]

Know what? I'm not going down this rabbit hole again.

Sounds like GM? Whatever.

Oh, and saying something sounds like GM isn't helpful if I have to ask what the hell that even means.

And I still don't know what that means.

[wagtunes]

Okay, let's take his comments line by line so I can explain why comments like these piss me off because they are not in the least bit helpful.

Here we go.

The arrangement is very problematic, with very basic phrasing that does the piece no favours.

What does this even mean? What's basic phrasing? And why does it do the piece no favors? What, does every piece have to be "Rite Of Spring?" Does anybody here even bother listening to old 70s string arrangements on ballads? You're not going to hear anything fancy going on there.

And alas it's still got that GM vibe.

Seriously, WTF does mean? I have never heard that term used before to describe a string arrangement. This doesn't help me one little bit.

You have to figure out how to add expression via CC

I actually did in several places but I guess the GM sound distracted from that.

and also figure out more realistic parts that sound like they could be played by the actual instruments

Again, WTF? There is nothing unrealistic about what I played. There is nothing in this piece that a real orchestra couldn't play. So this makes no sense at all.

and orchestrated in a more sympathetic fashion.

Again, WTF does this mean? Sympathetic? Meaning what? It needs to be more sad? The song itself is in a major key so there's only so sad it's going to get. I have no idea what he even means here.

Point is, NOTHING that was said helps me ONE LITTLE BIT. I have NO idea what I'm supposed to do next given these comments. So how does this help?

So if you just want to criticize, fine. But please don't sugar coat it with comments that make no sense at all. Just come out and say "I hated it." Plenty of people here have. That way we can avoid all this nonsense.

Now, if you want to point out specific sections, what you don't like and what you would have done differently, THAT would be helpful.

These comments? No help whatsoever.

THAT is why I'm so pissed off.

[experimental.crow]

Know what? I'm not going down this rabbit hole again.

Sounds like GM? Whatever.

Oh, and saying something sounds like GM isn't helpful if I have to ask what the hell that even means.

And I still don't know what that means.

i suspect you're being jejune ...
GM = General MIDI ...

[experimental.crow]

Okay, let's take his comments line by line so I can explain why comments like these piss me off because they are not in the least bit helpful.

Here we go.

The arrangement is very problematic, with very basic phrasing that does the piece no favours.

What does this even mean? What's basic phrasing? And why does it do the piece no favors? What, does every piece have to be "Rite Of Spring?" Does anybody here even bother listening to old 70s string arrangements on ballads? You're not going to hear anything fancy going on there.

And alas it's still got that GM vibe.

Seriously, WTF does mean? I have never heard that term used before to describe a string arrangement. This doesn't help me one little bit.

You have to figure out how to add expression via CC

I actually did in several places but I guess the GM sound distracted from that.

and also figure out more realistic parts that sound like they could be played by the actual instruments

Again, WTF? There is nothing unrealistic about what I played. There is nothing in this piece that a real orchestra couldn't play. So this makes no sense at all.

and orchestrated in a more sympathetic fashion.

Again, WTF does this mean? Sympathetic? Meaning what? It needs to be more sad? The song itself is in a major key so there's only so sad it's going to get. I have no idea what he even means here.

Point is, NOTHING that was said helps me ONE LITTLE BIT. I have NO idea what I'm supposed to do next given these comments. So how does this help?

So if you just want to criticize, fine. But please don't sugar coat it with comments that make no sense at all. Just come out and say "I hated it." Plenty of people here have. That way we can avoid all this nonsense.

Now, if you want to point out specific sections, what you don't like and what you would have done differently, THAT would be helpful.

These comments? No help whatsoever.

THAT is why I'm so pissed off.

all of your quotes , embedded above , came from a thread i posted , asking for comments
on my mix ... do you imagine i found your comments to be helpful ?...
i still took the time to engage w/ you , and address your comments in an adult manner ...

i'm not saying you need to agree w/ their assessment ...
by all means , stick to your opinion; it's your work , after all ...

[wagtunes]

Okay, let's take his comments line by line so I can explain why comments like these piss me off because they are not in the least bit helpful.

Here we go.

The arrangement is very problematic, with very basic phrasing that does the piece no favours.

What does this even mean? What's basic phrasing? And why does it do the piece no favors? What, does every piece have to be "Rite Of Spring?" Does anybody here even bother listening to old 70s string arrangements on ballads? You're not going to hear anything fancy going on there.

And alas it's still got that GM vibe.

Seriously, WTF does mean? I have never heard that term used before to describe a string arrangement. This doesn't help me one little bit.

You have to figure out how to add expression via CC

I actually did in several places but I guess the GM sound distracted from that.

and also figure out more realistic parts that sound like they could be played by the actual instruments

Again, WTF? There is nothing unrealistic about what I played. There is nothing in this piece that a real orchestra couldn't play. So this makes no sense at all.

and orchestrated in a more sympathetic fashion.

Again, WTF does this mean? Sympathetic? Meaning what? It needs to be more sad? The song itself is in a major key so there's only so sad it's going to get. I have no idea what he even means here.

Point is, NOTHING that was said helps me ONE LITTLE BIT. I have NO idea what I'm supposed to do next given these comments. So how does this help?

So if you just want to criticize, fine. But please don't sugar coat it with comments that make no sense at all. Just come out and say "I hated it." Plenty of people here have. That way we can avoid all this nonsense.

Now, if you want to point out specific sections, what you don't like and what you would have done differently, THAT would be helpful.

These comments? No help whatsoever.

THAT is why I'm so pissed off.

all of your quotes , embedded above , came from a thread i posted , asking for comments
on my mix ... do you imagine i found your comments to be helpful ?...
i still took the time to engage w/ you , and address your comments in an adult manner ...

i'm not saying you need to agree w/ their assessment ...
by all means , stick to your opinion; it's your work , after all ...

It isn't a matter of agreeing with their opinion. It's a matter of "I have no freaking clue just what it is he wants me to do."

His comments are vague at best. At worst, they're gibberish just to make himself sound smart.

Again, just give me something concrete to work with.

The comments made give me nothing to work with.

[Frantz]

https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim ... s-and-nuts

Scrolling back a bit to find a track more to my liking -- "Another Notch On My Gun." The synth "guitar" is playing attractive riffs and even does a nice bit of soloing. The chorus melody is catchy.

On the downside, it does seem a little underdeveloped. The lyrics are pretty simple and unimaginative. The arrangement is very sparse.

To me it seems more like a promising demo than a polished piece. Still the good bits will be stuck in my head for a while.

[noiseboyuk]

It’s a kind offer Wags, but I’m currently in the middle of the Mediterranean, far from home base. And on my return, I have my own work to attend to.

Even strings for pop songs need orchestrating. Playing a couple of lines doesn’t cover it. I don’t claim to be an expert on the theory of this, but it is nonetheless true. Listen critically to songs you admire, try and break down those parts as much as you can. As a simple example, what would be played as a set of triads on a keyboard would translate to 3 monophonic lines on 3 instruments, each with their own voice. I find that finding a cohesive line for each instrument that blends to a satisfying whole is a large part of the process. Of course sometimes it’s as simple as one line, or fifths, or octaves.

As for the sound itself, it’s a long way from what I know VSL can do. CCs are a huge part of that. Unless your working with a library where the arcs are all baked in and you’ve keyswitched them intensely, you gotta ride ‘em like crazy to create a performance, not sterile notes. At a minimum, for every long patch, that’s one hand on the modwheel and one on the keyboard (alternatively a foot or breath controller), where CC1 is mapped to the samples’ dynamics pp to ff. Then ride volume too if needed either via CC7, 11 or plain audio. If the library allows it, separate vibrato control on top is great and there might well be more controls depending on the instrument. What I hear so far feels void of any of this.

That said, strings have always seemed to me like a major weak point of VSL. Fighting sterility is hard. Appasionata is their more emotive set which has more vibrato, but even these are tough going when it comes to avoiding that dreaded synthyness.

Good luck and happy experimenting!

[wagtunes]

It’s a kind offer Wags, but I’m currently in the middle of the Mediterranean, far from home base. And on my return, I have my own work to attend to.

Even strings for pop songs need orchestrating. Playing a couple of lines doesn’t cover it. I don’t claim to be an expert on the theory of this, but it is nonetheless true. Listen critically to songs you admire, try and break down those parts as much as you can. As a simple example, what would be played as a set of triads on a keyboard would translate to 3 monophonic lines on 3 instruments, each with their own voice. I find that finding a cohesive line for each instrument that blends to a satisfying whole is a large part of the process. Of course sometimes it’s as simple as one line, or fifths, or octaves.

As for the sound itself, it’s a long way from what I know VSL can do. CCs are a huge part of that. Unless your working with a library where the arcs are all baked in and you’ve keyswitched them intensely, you gotta ride ‘em like crazy to create a performance, not sterile notes. At a minimum, for every long patch, that’s one hand on the modwheel and one on the keyboard (alternatively a foot or breath controller), where CC1 is mapped to the samples’ dynamics pp to ff. Then ride volume too if needed either via CC7, 11 or plain audio. If the library allows it, separate vibrato control on top is great and there might well be more controls depending on the instrument. What I hear so far feels void of any of this.

That said, strings have always seemed to me like a major weak point of VSL. Fighting sterility is hard. Appasionata is their more emotive set which has more vibrato, but even these are tough going when it comes to avoiding that dreaded synthyness.

Good luck and happy experimenting!

Okay, thank you. NOW I understand what you're talking about. So each note that I'm playing is too static for you. It doesn't evolve and change enough. You want the note to vary in volume from start to finish. You want the note to go from NV to VB or even MV during the course of it. And so on. I'm not even sure VSL can do this. I asked Jan about the vibrato on VSL strings because I don't even hear any on any of the patches. He says it's there on some of them but subtle.

Anyway, here's the bottom line. I don't think I can do what you want me to do with this library. At least I don't know how to yet. So essentially what you're saying is you don't like VSL.

Got it. I can't do anything about that. No, they don't sound like EWQL Hollywood strings where you can hear each note evolve without having to go through a ton of gymnastics. They are what they are. Personally, for subtle arrangements, I do like them. And as somebody who HAS listened to tons of classical music and pop ballads for over 50 years of my life, I think what I did sounds fine.

So this is a case where we'll just agree to disagree and move on.

Thanks for your input now that I finally understand the problem that you had with the piece.

[wagtunes]

https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim ... s-and-nuts

Scrolling back a bit to find a track more to my liking -- "Another Notch On My Gun." The synth "guitar" is playing attractive riffs and even does a nice bit of soloing. The chorus melody is catchy.

On the downside, it does seem a little underdeveloped. The lyrics are pretty simple and unimaginative. The arrangement is very sparse.

To me it seems more like a promising demo than a polished piece. Still the good bits will be stuck in my head for a while.

Notch was purposely done that way. I wanted something very raw and simple. Like a guy sitting in the studio playing his guitar. That's how I envisioned the song. Most of my music is overproduced. This one I wanted like this.

Thanks for the feedback.

[wagtunes]

It’s a kind offer Wags, but I’m currently in the middle of the Mediterranean, far from home base. And on my return, I have my own work to attend to.

Even strings for pop songs need orchestrating. Playing a couple of lines doesn’t cover it. I don’t claim to be an expert on the theory of this, but it is nonetheless true. Listen critically to songs you admire, try and break down those parts as much as you can. As a simple example, what would be played as a set of triads on a keyboard would translate to 3 monophonic lines on 3 instruments, each with their own voice. I find that finding a cohesive line for each instrument that blends to a satisfying whole is a large part of the process. Of course sometimes it’s as simple as one line, or fifths, or octaves.

As for the sound itself, it’s a long way from what I know VSL can do. CCs are a huge part of that. Unless your working with a library where the arcs are all baked in and you’ve keyswitched them intensely, you gotta ride ‘em like crazy to create a performance, not sterile notes. At a minimum, for every long patch, that’s one hand on the modwheel and one on the keyboard (alternatively a foot or breath controller), where CC1 is mapped to the samples’ dynamics pp to ff. Then ride volume too if needed either via CC7, 11 or plain audio. If the library allows it, separate vibrato control on top is great and there might well be more controls depending on the instrument. What I hear so far feels void of any of this.

That said, strings have always seemed to me like a major weak point of VSL. Fighting sterility is hard. Appasionata is their more emotive set which has more vibrato, but even these are tough going when it comes to avoiding that dreaded synthyness.

Good luck and happy experimenting!

One last thing. I just wrote to VSL and asked them how to do what you want me to do because I can't figure it out on my own. And them I'm going to redo the track yet again.

Then we can find out if you simply don't like the sound of VSL strings.

[wagtunes]

Another track from "Pop Madness"

This was a test of one of the Mystic Spaces sound stages. They are great for ambient type pieces. Kept this one fairly simple. Two instances of Omnisphere, horns, oboe, Drums and vocal.

Meditation Madness

Mad that I am
Still I see the light
And it haunts me
Every night

Nothing can help
Even when I sleep
There is no peace
For me to keep

Death awaits

https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim ... lead-vocal

[wagtunes]

It’s a kind offer Wags, but I’m currently in the middle of the Mediterranean, far from home base. And on my return, I have my own work to attend to.

Even strings for pop songs need orchestrating. Playing a couple of lines doesn’t cover it. I don’t claim to be an expert on the theory of this, but it is nonetheless true. Listen critically to songs you admire, try and break down those parts as much as you can. As a simple example, what would be played as a set of triads on a keyboard would translate to 3 monophonic lines on 3 instruments, each with their own voice. I find that finding a cohesive line for each instrument that blends to a satisfying whole is a large part of the process. Of course sometimes it’s as simple as one line, or fifths, or octaves.

As for the sound itself, it’s a long way from what I know VSL can do. CCs are a huge part of that. Unless your working with a library where the arcs are all baked in and you’ve keyswitched them intensely, you gotta ride ‘em like crazy to create a performance, not sterile notes. At a minimum, for every long patch, that’s one hand on the modwheel and one on the keyboard (alternatively a foot or breath controller), where CC1 is mapped to the samples’ dynamics pp to ff. Then ride volume too if needed either via CC7, 11 or plain audio. If the library allows it, separate vibrato control on top is great and there might well be more controls depending on the instrument. What I hear so far feels void of any of this.

That said, strings have always seemed to me like a major weak point of VSL. Fighting sterility is hard. Appasionata is their more emotive set which has more vibrato, but even these are tough going when it comes to avoiding that dreaded synthyness.

Good luck and happy experimenting!

One last thing. After going back through this entire thread, I have to ask.

I've posted 113 songs in this thread.

This is the ONLY one that you bothered to comment on. Is it because it was one you knew you could rip to shreds and make me feel like the most no talent bum on the entire planet?

Seems odd that THIS is the only piece you could bother to comment on. That's all. Like you're sitting there thinking "Aha, this is something I can REALLY tear apart."

I know I sound paranoid but it is kind of strange. I mean 113 songs and THIS is the one you comment on, so you can specifically tell me I sound like General MIDI?

Do you have ANY idea how insulting that is to somebody whose been composing music for over 40 years?

Anyway, doesn't matter. I'm waiting to hear back from Stefan at VSL so I can figure out how NOT to sound like General MIDI and sound like I have at least a morsel of talent.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

It’s a kind offer Wags, but I’m currently in the middle of the Mediterranean, far from home base. And on my return, I have my own work to attend to.

Even strings for pop songs need orchestrating. Playing a couple of lines doesn’t cover it. I don’t claim to be an expert on the theory of this, but it is nonetheless true. Listen critically to songs you admire, try and break down those parts as much as you can. As a simple example, what would be played as a set of triads on a keyboard would translate to 3 monophonic lines on 3 instruments, each with their own voice. I find that finding a cohesive line for each instrument that blends to a satisfying whole is a large part of the process. Of course sometimes it’s as simple as one line, or fifths, or octaves.

As for the sound itself, it’s a long way from what I know VSL can do. CCs are a huge part of that. Unless your working with a library where the arcs are all baked in and you’ve keyswitched them intensely, you gotta ride ‘em like crazy to create a performance, not sterile notes. At a minimum, for every long patch, that’s one hand on the modwheel and one on the keyboard (alternatively a foot or breath controller), where CC1 is mapped to the samples’ dynamics pp to ff. Then ride volume too if needed either via CC7, 11 or plain audio. If the library allows it, separate vibrato control on top is great and there might well be more controls depending on the instrument. What I hear so far feels void of any of this.

That said, strings have always seemed to me like a major weak point of VSL. Fighting sterility is hard. Appasionata is their more emotive set which has more vibrato, but even these are tough going when it comes to avoiding that dreaded synthyness.

Good luck and happy experimenting!

One last thing. After going back through this entire thread, I have to ask.

I've posted 113 songs in this thread.

This is the ONLY one that you bothered to comment on. Is it because it was one you knew you could rip to shreds and make me feel like the most no talent bum on the entire planet?

Seems odd that THIS is the only piece you could bother to comment on. That's all. Like you're sitting there thinking "Aha, this is something I can REALLY tear apart."

I know I sound paranoid but it is kind of strange. I mean 113 songs and THIS is the one you comment on, so you can specifically tell me I sound like General MIDI?

Do you have ANY idea how insulting that is to somebody whose been composing music for over 40 years?

Anyway, doesn't matter. I'm waiting to hear back from Stefan at VSL so I can figure out how NOT to sound like General MIDI and sound like I have at least a morsel of talent.

[wagtunes]

It’s a kind offer Wags, but I’m currently in the middle of the Mediterranean, far from home base. And on my return, I have my own work to attend to.

Even strings for pop songs need orchestrating. Playing a couple of lines doesn’t cover it. I don’t claim to be an expert on the theory of this, but it is nonetheless true. Listen critically to songs you admire, try and break down those parts as much as you can. As a simple example, what would be played as a set of triads on a keyboard would translate to 3 monophonic lines on 3 instruments, each with their own voice. I find that finding a cohesive line for each instrument that blends to a satisfying whole is a large part of the process. Of course sometimes it’s as simple as one line, or fifths, or octaves.

As for the sound itself, it’s a long way from what I know VSL can do. CCs are a huge part of that. Unless your working with a library where the arcs are all baked in and you’ve keyswitched them intensely, you gotta ride ‘em like crazy to create a performance, not sterile notes. At a minimum, for every long patch, that’s one hand on the modwheel and one on the keyboard (alternatively a foot or breath controller), where CC1 is mapped to the samples’ dynamics pp to ff. Then ride volume too if needed either via CC7, 11 or plain audio. If the library allows it, separate vibrato control on top is great and there might well be more controls depending on the instrument. What I hear so far feels void of any of this.

That said, strings have always seemed to me like a major weak point of VSL. Fighting sterility is hard. Appasionata is their more emotive set which has more vibrato, but even these are tough going when it comes to avoiding that dreaded synthyness.

Good luck and happy experimenting!

One last thing. After going back through this entire thread, I have to ask.

I've posted 113 songs in this thread.

This is the ONLY one that you bothered to comment on. Is it because it was one you knew you could rip to shreds and make me feel like the most no talent bum on the entire planet?

Seems odd that THIS is the only piece you could bother to comment on. That's all. Like you're sitting there thinking "Aha, this is something I can REALLY tear apart."

I know I sound paranoid but it is kind of strange. I mean 113 songs and THIS is the one you comment on, so you can specifically tell me I sound like General MIDI?

Do you have ANY idea how insulting that is to somebody whose been composing music for over 40 years?

Anyway, doesn't matter. I'm waiting to hear back from Stefan at VSL so I can figure out how NOT to sound like General MIDI and sound like I have at least a morsel of talent.

I'm glad to see that I've finally given you some entertainment that you can return after God knows how many pages.

It's blatantly easy to see those who only come here to bust my balls.

Anyway, sorry but your gif is over my head.