MXXX: 2 sidechains? (not a new rapper name)

[Annabanna]

Trying to find some more information on the use of multiple sidechains in MXXX. Unless I'm missing something, that would seem to be limited by the DAW architecture, so I'm guessing the multiple channels of sidechain input within MXXX is basically there to allow internal routing from different lanes from which the signal may have been split even though the DAW dictates that audio only inputs on lane 1, and sidechain only inputs on lane 4.

Is that correct? If not, I would LOVE to learn of some way to actually use 2 sidechains in Logic

If not, I'm hoping the brain trust on here can help me figure out a way to fake it.

Basically, the goal is to have two sets of triggers that do different things depending on whether triggered by kick or snare.

It would be preferable if this were possible without having to set up a separate kick/snare bus that's not otherwise being used. I'm already keying several other things off the kick track, and both are a MIDI track with a drum module in Logic. Unfortunately, Logic is a PITA for MIDI triggering, so looking to do audio triggering until that can be resolved without some of the side effects I was experiencing.

So far, I've come up with sidechaining a kick/snare stereo bus that's split with one on each channel, or where I split the sidechain signal by some kind of bandpass. Neither is ideal, though, since they each require a separate bus. I'd also prefer something if possible that can't get wonky if the kick has less bass this time, etc... just reliable triggers that work the same each time with minimal setup per track.

Is there a better way to do this?

[UnbalancedBeats]

Try Reaper

[Annabanna]

I don't doubt it. I wouldn't start over with Logic at this point... but I do for a variety of reasons need to make everything work in Logic for at least the next few months.

[vectorwarrior]

Have you tried using 'surround' mode? Send the different side chains to channels 3/4 and 5/6 of the main input. Then split out the different pairs (1/2, 3/4 and 5/6) in MXXX using a channel matrix module. Then you can use a utility module after splitting to even create feedback sources for the different side chains, to drive things like modulators.

It's a bit janky, but it'll work.

[Annabanna]

I've never worked in anything other than stereo mode, so to clarify, you're talking about running the Logic session in surround mode, and not just enabling some such mode in the plug within a stereo session, right?

I'm pretty pegged on cpu as is. I could try. Not sure if that puts additional system strain.

[Annabanna]

Haven't tried the surround suggestion yet as I'm working on some other things at the moment, but a thought occurred to me that I wanted to toss out:

I'm guessing that any method that involves bandpassing to sort by frequency as I suggested might screw things up from a latency perspective. For instance, if the kick trigger doesn't engage until it hears enough low frequency, it might completely miss the first portion of the click if it is (and it often is) mainly click.

Actually, when I sidechain to an actual audio track of the kick, I usually do the exact opposite for this reason, and filter to isolate the HF click at the beginning as it yields much more accurate attack times. Therefore, any solution that sorts by frequency probably isn't ideal. You MIGHT (depending on the modules) be able to dial that in via the lookahead, but that would require re-dialing that in every time the plug is used, so I'd rather avoid pitch based shared bus splits.

The L/R option I mentioned would seem to be a better one from that perspective, but off the top of my head, seems like it would require sending each to a separate bus (ideally via pre-fader send if DAW allows to avoid messing up triggers if mix levels change), then panning each of those busses hard L and R (along with possibly emphasizing initial transients and getting rid of the rest), then sending each of those to a third bus where each is isolated on a side. This third bus is then used as the stereo sidechain, and split out within MXXX.

It's unfortunate that this would require 3 additional busses, but I'm not seeing a simpler way to employ this method since there's no way I'm not aware of any way to hard pan on the insert send itself eliminating the need for the first two busses (at least in Logic).

I'd be interested to hear if anyone has simpler alternative solution for this method, though... or any other method.

[Annabanna]

Out of curiosity:

I've got years of daily experience sidechaining audio, but only a few frustrating attempts with MIDI triggering due to some Logic issues. If I were to work those issues out (or eventually switch DAW's), is this much simpler on the MIDI side? In other words, can I break down the incoming MIDI into notes or something like that so I could just set up a separate trigger per note, MIDI channel, or any other differentiating factor within MXXX?

Also, has anyone done it both ways and paid enough attention to have an informed opinion about latency and timing accuracy issues with MIDI triggers vs grabbing the very first couple MS of audio being triggered by that MIDI? I would assume MIDI triggering might be a bit more accurate, but it's just a guess.

[onerob]

Feature request: Melda creates its own send and receive utility plugins that bypass the built-in DAW routing. These can then also be added to MXXX lanes.

[Annabanna]

Feature request: Melda creates its own send and receive utility plugins that bypass the built-in DAW routing. These can then also be added to MXXX lanes.

Yeah, basically. I actually have 2 other uses for that already... problems that are exceedingly difficult to solve any other way.

I understand that some of the backchannel stuff can get really hairy, but I'd think the simple opening of a sidechain would be pretty straightforward.

Is there any version of that which could also create a MIDI backchannel? That would solve a LOT of headaches in Logic.

[masitito]

Trying to find some more information on the use of multiple sidechains in MXXX. Unless I'm missing something, that would seem to be limited by the DAW architecture, so I'm guessing the multiple channels of sidechain input within MXXX is basically there to allow internal routing from different lanes from which the signal may have been split even though the DAW dictates that audio only inputs on lane 1, and sidechain only inputs on lane 4.

Don't know about MXXX, but technically multiple inputs are possible in VTS3. But as this is not supported by the major DAWs Melda won't implement this.

Masi

See: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... c191483aa3

[onerob]

In Logic, if you place MXXX in an instrument slot as an 'AU Midi-controlled Effect' and use the main plugin sidechain menu to route audio through the plugin, you can then use the midi control window to adjust MXXX parameters. You'd need to go into the Environment window and cable your kick and snare channels into the MXXX channel, or just copy the drum midi regions to the channel's own midi lane.

Because you can get the midi control to listen to individual notes, you can effectively have more than one midi sidechain.

[Annabanna]

I've got a stereo track coming in with kick on L, and snare on R to process each separately, and a LR--->L&R splitter module sitting under the lane 4 input splitting it into lanes 4 and 5, but I just realized that modulators don't have the same input options as modules, so not seeing how to select the correct one for each modulator's detector as it seems to just assume lane 1 or 4.

Do I need to put some other module under lanes 4 and 5, and use each to re-route to feedback channel, then set the modulators to receive that feedback channel... or am I missing some easier way?

[onerob]

Looks like you deleted your initial reply? I see what you mean concerning the mute/solo issue, but I got round that with a midi transformer object to filter out fader messages from the kick and snare tracks.

I have a test Logic project file which I might link to tomorrow.

[Annabanna]

Looks like you deleted your initial reply? I see what you mean concerning the mute/solo issue, but I got round that with a midi transformer object to filter out fader messages from the kick and snare tracks.

I have a test Logic project file which I might link to tomorrow.

Yeah, I was trying to stay on point about the Melda end of things.

Never heard of a midi xformer object. I'd definitely be interested to hear how that works. The fact that MXXX can be instanced as a midi controlled effect makes that approach ideal. I'm using Battery right now, but maybe I could use Mdrummer or something... probably not on the same track, but maybe do track stack where the stack has the midi, so it sends to each track within (MXXX / drum module outs)

At the moment I was working out system to set up Battery as mult-track instrument with individual outs for kick and snare, and then separate one with tiny superquick blips at constant levels on same key as kick and snare out to a separate L/R bus to feed into MXXX. That way, any level changes don't affect triggers, and everything updates automatically if I change the MIDI track.

Still need a better way to get the split feed to separate modulators, though... eating up 2 tracks of feedback, etc seems excessive. Think I might be missing something simpler.

Let me know about Logic. thx

I've pretty much just avoided MIDI triggering for the past couple years due to the Logic issues, so not clear on any other possible benefits. Mods in MXXX look like it's just a straight trigger. Is there more you can do with it that I might not have paid attention to like defining height of envelope by velocity level, or splitting by channel, note, or something else? Reading up now, but I'd definitely need some way to differentiate kick vs snare... actually kick and ghost kick, snare, and ghost snare (2 velocity levels per instrument, so technically 4 sidechain triggers on the same track)

[onerob]

Here's a test project. I only have the demo of MXXX but it seems to save the parameters between sessions.

I noticed that modulators, in the main LFO section, can not only be triggered by midi as one-shots, but you can also specify what range of notes does the triggering, down to a single specific note. I used this to cause a kick drum at C1 to trigger a change in the frequency of an eq band in lane 1.

Then I used a different technique to switch distortion on and off in lane 2, which was to click the MIDI button in the lower right corner of MXXX and assign a note (which is the snare drum) to toggle between 0 and 100% dry/wet.

The cabling in Logic's environment window is simply to feed midi signals into the MXXX channel which is added as a midi controlled instrument. The transformer object filters out 'fader' events which, I found after some trial and error, fixes the issue of mute/sole being routed to MXXX along with the notes.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6d1x32d3qnoo ... z0CYa?dl=0