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Annabanna
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200 posts since 21 Jul, 2018

Postby Annabanna; Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:50 pm MXXX: Can any modules be coaxed to behave like Trackspacer?

Looking to basically scoop out space in an instrumental to allow a vocal to be combined with it such that the combined peaks don't exceed those of the instrumental alone.

The closest thing I can think of is Trackspacer. I'm not aware of any Mtools that can do this since Trackspacer is constantly adjusting the curve according to the shifting dynamics and frequency content of the sidechain.

What's the closest approximation of this using Melda tools?

Since it's really the combined peaks I'm trying to tame, I just whipped up a simple alternative approach that when placed on the instrumental track with the vocal as a sidechain ducks just the peaks on a midband of the instrumental when the vocal is present.

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It's currently almost shockingly UNeffective at reducing combined peaks, but I think that's at least partly because I'm not seeing a lookahead option for the follower, so by the time it tells the limiter to drop the hammer, the combined over has already occurred.

I could duplicate and offset the vocal (sidechain) to force it to behave like it has lookahead, but I try to avoid that sort of thing whenver possible, so is there some way to get lookahead on a follower or achieve a similar end? The limiter has lookahead, but it's not listening to the sidechain.

Certainly also open to any outside the box approaches to the overall concept.
Chandlerhimself
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747 posts since 19 Dec, 2013, from Japan

Postby Chandlerhimself; Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:20 pm Re: MXXX: Can any modules be coaxed to behave like Trackspacer?

MSpectral Dynamics can be setup to work exactly like track spacer. Just put it on a track and then send the lead instrument into the sidechain. From there just adjust things to taste.
Annabanna
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200 posts since 21 Jul, 2018

Postby Annabanna; Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:47 am Re: MXXX: Can any modules be coaxed to behave like Trackspacer?

dbl post
Last edited by Annabanna on Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Annabanna
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200 posts since 21 Jul, 2018

Postby Annabanna; Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:50 am Re: MXXX: Can any modules be coaxed to behave like Trackspacer?

Chandlerhimself wrote:MSpectral Dynamics can be setup to work exactly like track spacer. Just put it on a track and then send the lead instrument into the sidechain. From there just adjust things to taste.


I must have missed something about MSpectralDynamics then. I see how it can apply a static curve like a dynamic EQ, but Trackspacer is reading the frequency curve of the sidechain dynamically rather than taking a snapshot. To match the terminology, it is generating a new spectrum capture per sample.

This is possible?

Would also need it to apply not the sidechain curve, but it's inverse.
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ericzang
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381 posts since 6 May, 2002, from Phoenix, Arizona, USA

Postby ericzang; Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:41 am Re: MXXX: Can any modules be coaxed to behave like Trackspacer?

lookahead mutility.JPG

You can create "negative delay" with MUtility. Check "Report as latency". Put it on your sidechain path to create look ahead.
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Annabanna
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200 posts since 21 Jul, 2018

Postby Annabanna; Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:08 am Re: MXXX: Can any modules be coaxed to behave like Trackspacer?

ericzang wrote:
lookahead mutility.JPG

You can create "negative delay" with MUtility. Check "Report as latency". Put it on your sidechain path to create look ahead.



That's handy, thx. I have a plugin that does the same (I forget what it's called), but of course, I can't just toss it in the modular mix within MXXX.

Apparently, that wasn't the issue, though. Even manually forcing "lookahead" didn't change the fact that using a follower on the sidechain to duck a the music bed peaks (with or without the bandpass) provides minimal combined peak relief at best before causing more problems than it solves.

Reevaluating. The goal here is to avoid having to put a limiter on the combined output to bring the peaks back in line with the instrumental by detecting where such a limiter WOULD engage, and instead limiting the instrumental before the combination so any bus containing the vocal is never touched.

This has got to be my 15th attempt at such a thing. Lucky number 16, here we come.
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ericzang
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381 posts since 6 May, 2002, from Phoenix, Arizona, USA

Postby ericzang; Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:27 am Re: MXXX: Can any modules be coaxed to behave like Trackspacer?

MSpectralDynamics does have sidechain in that can be applied dynamically.
https://youtu.be/y00kbJBLRFc?t=447

There's a preset in the online exchange called 31 Band Ducking which is based on Trackspacer:
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Annabanna
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200 posts since 21 Jul, 2018

Postby Annabanna; Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:27 am Re: MXXX: Can any modules be coaxed to behave like Trackspacer?

Still need to wrap my head around the crossover/utility usage in the patch, but it certainly seems to be doing the TS thing.

I've seen the vid before, and unless I've missed something both times now, it appears to be showing multiple applications of static curves. I'm just not seeing how it reads the sidechain's frequency spectrum dynamically. It reads the dynamics from the sidechain like any MB comp/Dynamic EQ would, and the application of the static curve is itself a dynamic process (as it is with an MB comp/DynamicEQ), but to do the TS thing, it would need to be continuously adjusting the frequency target curve in real-time, and applying an inverse of that constantly changing curve. I'm seeing neither the inverse function nor the ability to apply the sidechain's frequency content in anything other than a static snapshot.
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ericzang
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381 posts since 6 May, 2002, from Phoenix, Arizona, USA

Postby ericzang; Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:29 am Re: MXXX: Can any modules be coaxed to behave like Trackspacer?

I wondered too about how the crossover was working. The key to it is that the utility receiving the crossover is set to receive on channel 5, which correlates to the crossover's 2nd band, of 3 bands (which output on channels 4-6).
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Annabanna
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200 posts since 21 Jul, 2018

Postby Annabanna; Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:37 am Re: MXXX: Can any modules be coaxed to behave like Trackspacer?

ericzang wrote:I wondered too about how the crossover was working. The key to it is that the utility receiving the crossover is set to receive on channel 5, which correlates to the crossover's 2nd band, of 3 bands (which output on channels 4-6).


Hmmm... OK. I'll have to take a closer look at that. In the meantime, this approach in general is proving to be somewhat less than useful in achieving the stated goal as reducing the combined peak issues by even 50% causes a clearly audible loss of punch (same issue I've always had with TrackSpacer), but it makes for a good ducker for other purposes.

I think the only real viable approach here is some version of measuring what the combined peaks would be, and very specifically reducing only those exact moments by the exact amount of the overages back on the instrumental track while being careful not to duck anything else to avoid mushiness, loss of level. Not sure, though. As much as I try not to limit the vox with percussive elements to avoid the drums distorting the vocals, it does seem to work better than the alternatives I've seen so far.

Anyway, here's a version with some simple global controls added for lookahead, attack, release, threshold. I added the lookahead utility module to the TrackSpacer part, but the bit I added is a limiter controlled by a mod. Since it's the follower that needs the lookahead, and since that's on the mod, and the mod isn't part of the signal flow diagram, how would the lookahead apply to it?

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Last edited by Annabanna on Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ericzang
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381 posts since 6 May, 2002, from Phoenix, Arizona, USA

Postby ericzang; Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:12 pm Re: MXXX: Can any modules be coaxed to behave like Trackspacer?

Nice, thanks for the modded preset. Sounds like an interesting challenge. About MSD, sorry maybe I'm not totally understanding you, but if I am understanding you, it seems you're misinterpreting what is happening in the video. At this linked to time in the video youtu.be/y00kbJBLRFc?t=664 that angular lower "curve" is not what is being applied, it's just a threshold, that is effectively just acting as a bandpass for the desired area for reduction to occur. The actual reduced frequencies being applied to the bass come from the kick's moving green upper curve.

For a full bandwidth example, the threshold could be simply a flat line lowered enough to have effect. To demonstrate better, the source could be pitch varying and this variance would be shown to be reducing only where the source pitch is. Here's a demo patch with a tone sweep (source) and white noise (target), though I only have the MSD Demo.

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Annabanna
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200 posts since 21 Jul, 2018

Postby Annabanna; Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:18 pm Re: MXXX: Can any modules be coaxed to behave like Trackspacer?

Thx. Will take a look. Just added note above code I pasted saying I see how to add lookahead to other modules, but not modulators since they're not part of the flow diagram. Code modified to match.
Annabanna
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200 posts since 21 Jul, 2018

Postby Annabanna; Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:41 pm Re: MXXX: Can any modules be coaxed to behave like Trackspacer?

Still not seeing it. The threshold is still static. Flat or otherwise, it doesn't move. Yes, the correction curve is shifting, but it's only doing so as a result of the changes in the frequency content of the main signal as measured against a static threshold.

That's half of what TS is doing, but to do the other half, the threshold curve itself would also need to be constantly changing shape to match the shifting frequency content of the sidechain. As far as I can tell, there's only an option to do a static capture to define the threshold. Even then, I'm not seeing an inverse function.

Of course, measuring the output of TS shows that it is cheating in that it's actually a bunch of band-split followers like the code example.
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ericzang
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381 posts since 6 May, 2002, from Phoenix, Arizona, USA

Postby ericzang; Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:06 pm Re: MXXX: Can any modules be coaxed to behave like Trackspacer?

Good point about the lookahead getting into the Mod. A good case for doing it externally. I think a modulator's side chain can only come from external from the plugin. On the other hand a Follower module gets it sidechain within the matrix, but what I don't know how to do is link the Follower module to other parameters (maybe its not meant to be used quite like that?). Here's the addition of the Follower module to your preset.

Re MSD, oh ok I didn't know you want to modulate the threshold. I suppose resorting to the external sidechain above with lookahead on it as in your preset but for MSD might work?

(I have to go, good luck!)

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Annabanna
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200 posts since 21 Jul, 2018

Postby Annabanna; Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:30 pm Re: MXXX: Can any modules be coaxed to behave like Trackspacer?

OK, thx. I'm not seeing how the routing would work with the follower module at the moment either... Then again, I have a tendency to try to misuse modules.
Last edited by Annabanna on Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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