MSoundFactory Modulation Question

[dmbaer]

First of all, I just spotted the Utilities panel header Map button - effing brilliant!!! I've been wishing for something like for ages, although maybe it's been there a while and I just now stumbled across it. In any case:

My questions:

I was able to locate the "mod matrix" for the LFOs and it seems fairly easy to understand (not that I've experimented much up until this point).

But where's the equivalent (a modulation mapping specifier) for Env and Random modulators?

Also, can you use Env 1 (or any other Env) to override the main amp envelope?

Here's what I'm trying to figure out how to do. I have two different basic amp envelope shapes required for a preset I have in mind. One of them is a conventional, vanilla ADSR and the other is similar except that the starting level is 50% (in other words, the attack needs to start from the 50% level and rise from there). I can get the envelope for that second case using Custom Shape. But I don't seem to be able to change the start level with an MP, so I'm looking to just use two independent amp envelopes and switch between them using an MP. Is there some way to implement this scheme? Or is there some other approach with which I could get this to work using just the global main amp envelope? Any ideas?

[DarkStar]

[Map] - I think that that was my idea as I kept forgetting what I had done.

Env and Random:


Investigation TIP: I found these out by Learning them to a Spare Modulator, opening the Modulator Editor and double-clicking each target parameter - that opens the Parameter Browser at the target.

Main Amp envelope
This might do what you want: set the main ADSR to a Custom Shape, !00% Attack and 100% Release )to deactivate it). Set the ADSR Envelope in a Modulator and set the Globals / Volume as the target.

Start attack at 50%
Change to Custom Shape and drag the first point up

[dmbaer]

Thanks, DS.

Going backwards:

The question about getting the envelope to start at a non-zero level was not about how to make that happen. Using the custom shape, just as you suggest, is no problem. My challenge is to be able to modify the envelope in a single preset so that the non-zero envelope start level can be controlled via an MP. I want to be able to control that just as I could modify attack time, etc. I'm not seeing a way to do that (but trust me, I've got a really good reason why I need to do just that for this preset idea to work).

As to the earlier points, it seems you're showing how to set and Env, Random or LFO characteristic as a target of an MP. I'm still not seeing how this allows one to specify what the target of the Env or Random module is. But maybe I'm just not following.

Some new LFO questions:

I'm also puzzled about the LFOs. I assume they are here because they are per-voice (otherwise a regular modulator would work just as well). So, if we don't enable Sync, are the LFOs free-running with no coordination between multiple voices? Random phase positions among multiple voices (each voice having its own LFO phase) is what I need, by the way. If Sync *is* enabled, then how does that work? Does the LFO cycle start with note-on, or (once again) are all voices coordinated? If the latter, why not just use a regular modulator?

[jmalge]

I'm still not seeing how this allows one to specify what the target of the Env or Random module is.

So, the new LFO modulators have a parameter, "Rate", that can itself be a modulation target. Thus far, that's the only modulator in the new modulation system that has a modulation target in it. (And yes you can recursively modulate it with itself.)

Perhaps you're pressing an LFO's Rate modulation target button and think you see a traditional mod matrix? If so, that's NOT what you're seeing.


Quick Tutorial:

Go to the Generator tab.

Insert an oscillator module onto the grid.

See that many of the oscillator's parameters (e.g. Pitch Semitones, Transform Depth, Transform Volume, etc.) have this little button to the right that has a "play" or "right-arrow" icon on it.

That's the modulation button for that target parameter, or to put it another way, the button you press to open a 4 x 4 matrix that lets you select the modulation sources for that parameter. Each possible target gets its own 4 x 4 mod source matrix.

So, let's use Env 1 to modulate the pitch of that oscillator. Press the modulation target button next to Pitch - Semitones. The 4 x 4 matrix window opens.

1. Notice that the "Off" button in the upper left is highlighted. Press it and select Env 1. Notice that the label changes from Off to Env 1.
2. Adjust the Depth parameter (probably a knob) to set the max modulation depth of the whole matrix for this target.
3. Adjust the depth slider under the newly-labeled Env 1 button to set the depth of Env 1 relative to the max depth set in step 2.
4. Press the "pop-out" icon on Env 1 button to access the actual Env 1 envelope and set ADSR etc. as desired. Or you could just click on Env 1 at the bottom of the main MSF window at any time to adjust it.

Then, if you wanted to multiply the Env 1 modulation by something else, pick the next modulation slot to the right, on the same row as Env 1 and select another modulator. If you just want to add (rather than multiply) another modulation then pick the slot on the next row down. Columns multiply, Rows sum, and the whole shebang sums to the target, which you can then automate through the DAW and/or further modulate with the 8 classic modulators.

[DarkStar]

Hmm, those Modulation buttons is quite hard to see. I recall Vojtech saying in a post that the "play" icon was the best of the available choices.

Anyway, for an example, load the Church Organ preset - the Oscillators Unison Voices and Detune are modulated (except that the Depth is set to 0%)

[dmbaer]

Columns multiply, Rows sum, and the whole shebang sums to the target, which you can then automate through the DAW and/or further modulate with the 8 classic modulators.

Most helpful! Thanks much.

Now, we'll see what 12.06 brings to the party.

[dmbaer]

One of my earlier questions never got a response, so I'll repeat it:

I'm also puzzled about the LFOs. I assume they are here because they are per-voice (otherwise a regular modulator would work just as well). So, if we don't enable Sync, are the LFOs free-running with no coordination between multiple voices? Random phase positions among multiple voices (each voice having its own LFO phase) is what I need, by the way. If Sync *is* enabled, then how does that work? Does the LFO cycle start with note-on, or (once again) are all voices coordinated? If the latter, why not just use a regular modulator?

Thanks for any insights.

[DarkStar]

All of the Modulation Sources are for modulating the parameters in the Generator. I have suggested to Vojtech that the panel is displayed only on the Generator tab.

Watching the Modulation animations (have you found them yet? ) in the Modulation windows it looks like:
(a) unSynced LFOs start on Note_On at the maximum value,
(b) so they are effectively synced with each other,
(c) I have got them to be out of phase by creating a shifted Custom Shape for the LFO

(d) Synced LFOS take their cyclic behaviour from the host tempo etc.

I am not 100% how to get two voices (Oscillators) to be out of phase by a specific amount. Perhaps another shifted Custom Shape?

I also see an LFO plug-in available in the Generator, but I cannot work out what is does.

[dmbaer]

Watching the Modulation animations (have you found them yet? ) in the Modulation windows it looks like:
(a) unSynced LFOs start on Note_On at the maximum value,
(b) so they are effectively synced with each other,
(c) I have got them to be out of phase by creating a shifted Custom Shape for the LFO

Yes, I set up a very informal test yesterday and this is exactly the impression that I came away with, and, yes, the animations confirm this (using a slow enough rate that you can follow with the eyes).

I would very much like a way to make the phases between multiple voices with the same note-on time have random phases. I'd also like to a) have a delay in the LFO (and what the hell, a ramp time as well), b) specify the starting position in the waveform (i.e., the phase) and c) have the delay time be a modulation target just like the LFO rate is.

As best I can tell, there is no way to control the starting position in the waveform or to make that random between voices. Not that this is something that's frequently needed, but it seems like it ought to be there for when it is desired.

[Chandlerhimself]

I don’t know for sure, but you might be able to do that by using ADSR and LFOs together. I think if you use an ADSR before and LFO you can control the delay,ramp up, etc(I’m not at my computer so I can’t say for sure).

Maybe some tutorial presets should be included to show people how to do some of the more complicated things in this synth.

[mevla]

Maybe some tutorial presets should be included to show people how to do some of the more complicated things in this synth.

In a general sense, it's always interesting to have tutorials about more creative aspects, more creative uses of audio processing, how certain devices can be used to add colors, etc.

Cheers.

[dmbaer]

I don’t know for sure, but you might be able to do that by using ADSR and LFOs together. I think if you use an ADSR before and LFO you can control the delay,ramp up, etc

Well, I don't know for sure either, but I'm *pretty* sure this is not currently possible.

I would be happily proven wrong, however.

[Chandlerhimself]

I don’t know for sure, but you might be able to do that by using ADSR and LFOs together. I think if you use an ADSR before and LFO you can control the delay,ramp up, etc

Well, I don't know for sure either, but I'm *pretty* sure this is not currently possible.

I would be happily proven wrong, however.

I just checked and you definitely can use an envelop to delay an LFO. You can also use it to ramp up the depth, but it wasn't working quite how I'd expect, so I can't say it won't work for that use or not. I admit it might be user error and it actually can ramp up an LFO. I'll have to play with it a bit more, but I beleive it can do it. I know for a fact it can delay an LFO.

[dmbaer]

I just checked and you definitely can use an envelop to delay an LFO. You can also use it to ramp up the depth, but it wasn't working quite how I'd expect, so I can't say it won't work for that use or not. I admit it might be user error and it actually can ramp up an LFO. I'll have to play with it a bit more, but I beleive it can do it. I know for a fact it can delay an LFO.

OK, I wasn't clear. Yes you can multiply an LFO by an envelope when modulating something, which would give you a delay and a ramp LFO possibility.

But there's no way you could use that capability to introduce random phase into the LFO, which was my goal here. You could modulate the LFO rate lightly at the start with an envelope, but you cannot randomize an envelope segment's time (as far as I know) which would be the trick to introduce random phase.

[Chandlerhimself]

I just checked and you definitely can use an envelop to delay an LFO. You can also use it to ramp up the depth, but it wasn't working quite how I'd expect, so I can't say it won't work for that use or not. I admit it might be user error and it actually can ramp up an LFO. I'll have to play with it a bit more, but I beleive it can do it. I know for a fact it can delay an LFO.

OK, I wasn't clear. Yes you can multiply an LFO by an envelope when modulating something, which would give you a delay and a ramp LFO possibility.

But there's no way you could use that capability to introduce random phase into the LFO, which was my goal here. You could modulate the LFO rate lightly at the start with an envelope, but you cannot randomize an envelope segment's time (as far as I know) which would be the trick to introduce random phase.

I understand now, but doesn’t the LFO already have a random phase slider? I know one was added to the OSC, but I thought there was one added to the LFOs too. If not you could try using an note random, envelope and LFO.