Lamentation - 4 Part Chorale (SATB)

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jancivil
KVRAF
15339 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Post Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:19 pm

ChamMusic wrote: POODLE
:lol:







the poodle bites
the poodle chews it
come on, Frenchy
the poodle bites
the poodle chews it
not a speck of cereal
the poodle bites
the poodle chews it
nothin' but the best for mah dawg

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JazzyClarinetMan
KVRist
45 posts since 25 Aug, 2018 from United Kingdom

Re: Lamentation - 4 Part Chorale (SATB)

Post Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:44 am

This is very different from your piano music one.

I thought it was a real choir at first.

Heavenly and intense.
Jazz Clarinet Rocks - well sort of Swings anyway!

mediumaevum
KVRist
139 posts since 14 Feb, 2013

Re: Lamentation - 4 Part Chorale (SATB)

Post Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:57 am

The choir itself sounds realistic, and your composition is good. But for me, you are using too many dissonant chords.

Try some chords like D+F+A or C+E+G. I prefer those to the dissonance (C+D+A). In my opinion, the worst a musician can do, is to put an E together with an F!

Otherwise, I guess you composition would have been really great (epic), had it not been for the dissonance.

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ChamMusic
KVRian
887 posts since 12 Jun, 2006 from Birmingham, UK

Re: Lamentation - 4 Part Chorale (SATB)

Post Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:17 pm

mediumaevum wrote:The choir itself sounds realistic, and your composition is good. But for me, you are using too many dissonant chords.

Try some chords like D+F+A or C+E+G. I prefer those to the dissonance (C+D+A). In my opinion, the worst a musician can do, is to put an E together with an F!

Otherwise, I guess you composition would have been really great (epic), had it not been for the dissonance.
Thank you very much for at least attempting to listen! :0)

Having had a few 'conversations' with you regarding your mild obsession with basic triads, I'm not surprised that this is too dissonant for your ear. I understand that and fully accept it! :0)

I have to admit that your comment saddened me in one way though...

Not because of the fact that you didn't enjoy it...that's absolutely fine as I've never been precious about my music! If I was I wouldn't do this for a living! Bad reviews are just part of the job! :0)

No, it's more that I've worked with you on a few of your pieces where you've asked for advice + a couple of questions you had on the MUSIC THEORY forum and your comments here clearly show that my messages have not hit the target...

I've tried to explain to you that the essence of all music is often in the ebb and flow through varying degrees of consonance and dissonance and that dissonance itself is something to be embraced not avoided. MY OPINION: That is the ONLY way that your own music will grow to new heights of intensity....by moving beyond basic triads.

More of my writings on dissonance here if you feel brave - a precis of an article I wrote some years ago:

https://marktaylorchameleonmusic.wordpr ... -in-music/


We had a conversation regarding Tallis by V.W. - you wanted to understand one of his compositional techniques as you loved that piece. yet you say here that:

In my opinion, the worst a musician can do, is to put an E together with an F!

Delve a little further into Tallis and you'll find many examples of such note combinations! :0)

Statements such as that E/F one make no sense without harmonic context.

Try some chords like D+F+A or C+E+G.

I do get your point here with this suggestion, but it possibly wasn't the best idea to point out basic triads to someone who has studied music at University and has composed professionally for 25 years! Especially when they have helped you with detailed questions regarding music theory and shown themselves to have a good knowledge of it:0)

ALWAYS check people's profiles before commenting with any detail! :0)

But for me, you are using too many dissonant chords.

Fair enough, I understand that...this piece is NOT for everyone at all.

But, as I've tried to explain to you before - I don't compose vertically...i did not write this piece using chords as such...any triads are sort of incidental.

The piece was write horizontally...I wrote four melodies that for me work together effectively. I accept that to your ear it is too dissonant, but you must also accept that this is EXACTLY how I wanted it to sound and to my ear it is far from extreme dissonance.

My old professor of composition at University bumped into me recently, (didn't know he was still alive).

He had a listen to some of my soundcloud stuff and then emailed me some responses.

This piece, which might be more to your taste he described as 'a barely tolerable piece of pap':
https://soundcloud.com/chameleon-music/ ... -the-blade

This one, (which you will probably dislike intensely) he described as 'A beautifully judged improvisation that genuinely moved me...thank God you've learned something Mark':

https://soundcloud.com/chameleon-music/ ... -substance

Personally, I think the old codger is wrong on both counts, but you see my point that the dissonant piano piece was much more to his taste and believe me he knows more about composition than anyone I've ever met....everything from Bach and Beethoven to Scelsi and Ligeti.

I just feel that you need to open up your mind to more musical possibilities and then you'll find that your obvious musical talent will blossom to an extent that you didn't realize was possible.

Sorry, I type quickly and I've 'gone on' a bit! :0)
Mark Taylor
Chameleon Music

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wagtunes
KVRAF
13342 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Lamentation - 4 Part Chorale (SATB)

Post Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:31 pm

Mark, given that this is your thread, I feel that my comment here is appropriate as I'm not detracting from somebody else's music.

I wish I had met you years. I think we would have gotten along really well and I think I could have learned a lot from you. All my immediate friends were musically primitive, for lack of a better word. Most weren't even into making music. Truth is, I never really had any "musical" friends though I did have friends. I think it would have been nice.

I find myself wishing these things as I'm getting older.

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ChamMusic
KVRian
887 posts since 12 Jun, 2006 from Birmingham, UK

Re: Lamentation - 4 Part Chorale (SATB)

Post Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:15 pm

wagtunes wrote:I find myself wishing these things as I'm getting older.
That's entirely normal....well I bloody hope it is! :0)
wagtunes wrote:I think I could have learned a lot from you.
Maybe, but it would definitely have been a two way process...definitely is on here 100% with you and everyone else I interact with...OK, not absolutely everyone! :0)

Thank you! :0)
Mark Taylor
Chameleon Music

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ChamMusic
KVRian
887 posts since 12 Jun, 2006 from Birmingham, UK

Re: Lamentation - 4 Part Chorale (SATB)

Post Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:19 pm

JazzyClarinetMan wrote:This is very different from your piano music one.

I thought it was a real choir at first.

Heavenly and intense.
Apologies, I missed this comment entirely...

Thank you very much for the listens and feedback.

PS: My dad would love your alias...he's obsessed with jazz clarinet. I would say 'get in contact' for a chat, but he's not really a big user of the internet at all.
Mark Taylor
Chameleon Music

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wagtunes
KVRAF
13342 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Lamentation - 4 Part Chorale (SATB)

Post Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:46 pm

ChamMusic wrote:
wagtunes wrote:I find myself wishing these things as I'm getting older.
That's entirely normal....well I bloody hope it is! :0)
wagtunes wrote:I think I could have learned a lot from you.
Maybe, but it would definitely have been a two way process...definitely is on here 100% with you and everyone else I interact with...OK, not absolutely everyone! :0)

Thank you! :0)
The only thing you would have learned from me is how to write the most sickeningly sweet pop tunes on the planet.

The one I'm working on now will send a diabetic into a coma.

User avatar
ChamMusic
KVRian
887 posts since 12 Jun, 2006 from Birmingham, UK

Re: Lamentation - 4 Part Chorale (SATB)

Post Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:43 am

jancivil wrote:
ChamMusic wrote: POODLE
:lol:







the poodle bites
the poodle chews it
come on, Frenchy
the poodle bites
the poodle chews it
not a speck of cereal
the poodle bites
the poodle chews it
nothin' but the best for mah dawg
Somehow missed this earlier!

As a poem it's a bit woof around the edges! :0)
Mark Taylor
Chameleon Music

mediumaevum
KVRist
139 posts since 14 Feb, 2013

Re: Lamentation - 4 Part Chorale (SATB)

Post Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:14 pm

ChamMusic wrote:
Thank you very much for at least attempting to listen! :0)

Having had a few 'conversations' with you regarding your mild obsession with basic triads, I'm not surprised that this is too dissonant for your ear. I understand that and fully accept it! :0)

I have to admit that your comment saddened me in one way though...

Not because of the fact that you didn't enjoy it...that's absolutely fine as I've never been precious about my music! If I was I wouldn't do this for a living! Bad reviews are just part of the job! :0)

No, it's more that I've worked with you on a few of your pieces where you've asked for advice + a couple of questions you had on the MUSIC THEORY forum and your comments here clearly show that my messages have not hit the target...

I've tried to explain to you that the essence of all music is often in the ebb and flow through varying degrees of consonance and dissonance and that dissonance itself is something to be embraced not avoided. MY OPINION: That is the ONLY way that your own music will grow to new heights of intensity....by moving beyond basic triads.

More of my writings on dissonance here if you feel brave - a precis of an article I wrote some years ago:

https://marktaylorchameleonmusic.wordpr ... -in-music/


We had a conversation regarding Tallis by V.W. - you wanted to understand one of his compositional techniques as you loved that piece. yet you say here that:

In my opinion, the worst a musician can do, is to put an E together with an F!

Delve a little further into Tallis and you'll find many examples of such note combinations! :0)

Statements such as that E/F one make no sense without harmonic context.

Try some chords like D+F+A or C+E+G.

I do get your point here with this suggestion, but it possibly wasn't the best idea to point out basic triads to someone who has studied music at University and has composed professionally for 25 years! Especially when they have helped you with detailed questions regarding music theory and shown themselves to have a good knowledge of it:0)

ALWAYS check people's profiles before commenting with any detail! :0)

But for me, you are using too many dissonant chords.

Fair enough, I understand that...this piece is NOT for everyone at all.

But, as I've tried to explain to you before - I don't compose vertically...i did not write this piece using chords as such...any triads are sort of incidental.

The piece was write horizontally...I wrote four melodies that for me work together effectively. I accept that to your ear it is too dissonant, but you must also accept that this is EXACTLY how I wanted it to sound and to my ear it is far from extreme dissonance.

My old professor of composition at University bumped into me recently, (didn't know he was still alive).

He had a listen to some of my soundcloud stuff and then emailed me some responses.

This piece, which might be more to your taste he described as 'a barely tolerable piece of pap':
https://soundcloud.com/chameleon-music/ ... -the-blade

This one, (which you will probably dislike intensely) he described as 'A beautifully judged improvisation that genuinely moved me...thank God you've learned something Mark':

https://soundcloud.com/chameleon-music/ ... -substance

Personally, I think the old codger is wrong on both counts, but you see my point that the dissonant piano piece was much more to his taste and believe me he knows more about composition than anyone I've ever met....everything from Bach and Beethoven to Scelsi and Ligeti.

I just feel that you need to open up your mind to more musical possibilities and then you'll find that your obvious musical talent will blossom to an extent that you didn't realize was possible.

Sorry, I type quickly and I've 'gone on' a bit! :0)
Thank you, actually I did return to your thread writing this message because I felt I was wrong about my criticism - and I'm in-fact very much sorry, because my dissonance-criticism is way off. It is wrong.

I'm just starting to learn to embrace the dissonance, and after I discovered some works of Ola Gjeilo his use of dissonance is absolutely stunning - so is yours. I just had to give it (dissonance) some time.

I'm beginning to compose my next pieces using dissonance - even with the E+F chord-combinations!

I'm looking forward to get critique on my works, when I've made a dissonant composition. May I PM you when ready?

Dissonance not only creates the tension, it also makes you more free as a composer. I've been too restricted myself because of my lack in belief in dissonance. Seems like it is there to stay, and all I can do is try and master it myself.

You've done an excellent job at mastering dissonance in your works, and I would be glad to learn from you.

rp314
KVRAF
2124 posts since 25 Mar, 2006 from The city by the bay

Re: Lamentation - 4 Part Chorale (SATB)

Post Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:12 pm

thomekk wrote:Sounds good as it is, of course it does work. Concerning realism -> probably I'm the wrong one to ask, as it's not something always important to me, if the composition is right.
That's how I tend to listen to stuff posted around here even though I understand that generally folks would like to get constructive criticism regarding the recording aspects.

Very nice composition and the choir sounded fine to me (keep in mind that some of us are not so young and our hearing may not be what it once was :hihi: )

:clap:

User avatar
thomekk
KVRAF
2442 posts since 3 May, 2003 from Germany

Re: Lamentation - 4 Part Chorale (SATB)

Post Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:19 pm

rp314 wrote:
thomekk wrote:Sounds good as it is, of course it does work. Concerning realism -> probably I'm the wrong one to ask, as it's not something always important to me, if the composition is right.
That's how I tend to listen to stuff posted around here even though I understand that generally folks would like to get constructive criticism regarding the recording aspects.
I just wanted to say that I appreciated this as a composition : )
Though I'm not sure if Mark meant it in the way asking for audio engineering aspects (if I got u right).

More important to me was that I'm not being the best person to ask if goes for authenticity impressions concerning "sounds the singing at every place of the piece like a real choir" (unfortunately never been in one, but I like choral music). And neither I like the discussions that much as goes for "Is this piano more realistic?" (as there are many pianos eg. with different character). Ok, and I think for choir libraries there are for sure huge differences - but the Dominus Choir sounds well and seems one of the better ones.

I'm happy when I don't have to complain about stuff and can enjoy : )
"New Album" YouTube
music has become meaningless...

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ChamMusic
KVRian
887 posts since 12 Jun, 2006 from Birmingham, UK

Re: Lamentation - 4 Part Chorale (SATB)

Post Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:16 am

mediumaevum wrote:I felt I was wrong about my criticism
No, not necessarily in terms of this piece...your opinion is always going to be valid. Don't shy away from criticising my music! :0)
mediumaevum wrote:I'm just starting to learn to embrace the dissonance
Great! That is all that concerned me about your earlier comments - the fact that you seemed to be 100% rejecting dissonance and almost deliberately avoiding it in your own music...very limiting to say the least.
rp314 wrote:I'm beginning to compose my next pieces using dissonance - even with the E+F chord-combinations!
Yes, experimenting a bit further than you have so far can only be a positive, but don't try and go as far as this piece of mine quite yet maybe! :0) E+F can come across very differently depending on the surrounding harmonic context.
mediumaevum wrote:Dissonance not only creates the tension, it also makes you more free as a composer. I've been too restricted myself because of my lack in belief in dissonance.
That's it in a nutshell! Tallis, Bach, Mozart, Tchaikovsky Williams etc etc - dissonance is a central part of their music. I think maybe that you've looked upon the D word as always being something very edgy and extreme as in some of the more experimental 20th Century composers and have therefore backed away from it entirely?
mediumaevum wrote:You've done an excellent job at mastering dissonance in your works, and I would be glad to learn from you.
Believe me, I've got it wrong very many times and still do! :0) Any learning will be a two-way process...it always should be. Every piece of music I listen to adds to my experience in some way. I've always pointed out to my formal composition students that I expect to learn from them as they develop pieces for their courses...takes me out of my comfort zone if nothing else + they sometimes come up with ideas that would never have occured to me.

If you post a piece, I will listen to it. If I have anything useful to say, I will say it! :0)
Mark Taylor
Chameleon Music

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ChamMusic
KVRian
887 posts since 12 Jun, 2006 from Birmingham, UK

Re: Lamentation - 4 Part Chorale (SATB)

Post Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:22 am

rp314 wrote:
thomekk wrote:Sounds good as it is, of course it does work. Concerning realism -> probably I'm the wrong one to ask, as it's not something always important to me, if the composition is right.
That's how I tend to listen to stuff posted around here even though I understand that generally folks would like to get constructive criticism regarding the recording aspects.

Very nice composition and the choir sounded fine to me (keep in mind that some of us are not so young and our hearing may not be what it once was :hihi: )

:clap:
Thank you for having a listen and commenting.

People can say what they like about my music - quick simple comments or detailed feedback about the musical content, production values...that's entirely up to them. With this one I was deliberately pushing a VST choir to its limits by having it 'naked' so that was a one off central focus.

I'm NOT so young either and my hearing is definitely NOT what it used to be! :0)
Mark Taylor
Chameleon Music

User avatar
ChamMusic
KVRian
887 posts since 12 Jun, 2006 from Birmingham, UK

Re: Lamentation - 4 Part Chorale (SATB)

Post Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:34 am

thomekk wrote:I just wanted to say that I appreciated this as a composition : )
Thank you!
thomekk wrote:Though I'm not sure if Mark meant it in the way asking for audio engineering aspects (if I got u right).
You did. I was just interested ( as a one-off) in how this VST choir sounded 'naked'. I would normally have a piece like this performed by a real choir, but the truth is, it's too much hassle and expense nowadays.
thomekk wrote:I'm happy when I don't have to complain about stuff and can enjoy : )
I need to take this approach on board. As a composition teacher for the last 30 years, I get the urge to analyse and help people improve...it's NOT always appreciated and I need to target such comments a little more carefully! I always try and phrase my feedback constructively, but I've had some extraordinarily abusive reactions in recent weeks!

What I need to remember on forums like this is that sometimes people just don't want to hear how they could improve; they just want to hear 'great' things about their music. I'm learning to 'read between the lines' and just ignore the small-minded, defensive,minority.
Mark Taylor
Chameleon Music

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