The first MSoundFactory active preset

[MeldaProduction]

OKay, so time for me to get back in the conversation. First, thanks for the feedback guys! I think you are right that I overcomplicated things a bit. I'll try to explain the whole idea and I think I will kind of touch the several questions in this topic:

Presets vs. Active presets

This is a big problematic question. Most synths have simple presets without controls. That's bad imho, because unless you like the preset itself, it is hard to change it well. While the designer knew everything about it. Some samplers like Kontakt went the other direction - they have more like only active presets.

Now in my opinion the idea is to make each active preset adjustable, because the preset designer just knew what he can do with it, since he knows how it works. But it must not kill the workflow. So the solution may be:
Each active preset would have a dedicated multiparameter, that would serve as presets for that particular active preset. Or even better, each active preset would have a dedicated preset manager, just like everything else.

So if you are building an organ, you wouldn't build a rock organ, then a gospel organ etc... You'd build one generalized organ, which would have presets. And as a user you'd open "Organ", because you know you want organ (do you?) and select the one you actually want.

Globals

I think all active presets just need these and this includes some sort of MPE access as well as detune. Just something that people may need. That's the purpose of the template after all. Imagine you'd be creating a song, which is just detuned, now you can simply detune the sounds as you wish and lock it when browsing the active presets. But the filters by timbre etc., that may be an overkill indeed. I'm not sure, I have 2 MPE controllers here, so I'll play with them a bit more.

Generator and FX tab

I simply ran out of space . In any case I didn't mean the generator tab should look like this! This one would be different for every preset. I just wanted to create "the first" preset, sort of proof of concept.

Effects

One of the biggest questions here . What I tried to do was to make a predefined set of effects, that every preset would have. The idea is not to avoid more! It's the opposite. I think every preset could benefit from a reverb and delay for example. The problem is how to define "the minimum set of effects", which just need to be available.
Also note that I didn't mean that the FX structure should be the same for every preset! It's merely that every preset should somehow implement a reverb (and others). How, that's up to the preset.
It could also help the preset designers as they would basically have it all done in the template. Then when they want to change it, no problem.
As for global FX bypass, I'm not so keep about this one. FX is part of the sound after all...

Per-voice vs. global FX

I don't think these should be separate. They work very different, but they still do some specific action - effecting. How much it affects the sound is imho irrelevant.


Ok, so that's my reasoning. What do you think? It seems that we definitely need to cut some things out. JMG8 already did and I think the result is better. But still, we may continue cutting , or adding, and we mainly need to agree on some basic template. And the idea of the active presets itself.

[Soundplex]

Most synths have simple presets without controls.

Most synths have some sort of macro controls (kobs & buttons) which clever sound designers assign to change the sound (like adding layers or drums, controlling fx amounts, switch harmonic mode, ...) + of course modwheel is assigned most of the time too. I don't know how many offer more than 3 macros, but there was hardly a need for more than that (I think Avenger has 5). If the changes are too big, they're more likely to create a new preset.

[Chandlerhimself]

I'll give a few more of my thoughts and suggestions.

Layout

Right now when I open up the super-saw preset it looks like this.

MSF.JPG

As you can see at least half of the easy interface is cut off. On my laptop it was even worse. When people are browsing they'll miss half the features just because they can't see them. My suggestions would be this.

1). Move the Active Preset tree/browser off the easy screen(I'll explain where it should go later).

2). Take most of the global controls and move them above the meters on the right. Many of the current melda plugins have input, output and wet dry there. Instead of those, place gain, pitch and pitch-bend range there. Below or above those controls add an advanced button that will open a new window. Put things like, load tuning, max voices, controllers, etc in there.

IMO this solves 3 problems. Without the active preset tree things look better and there is more space. It also eliminates the need for locks. The controls above the meters should be universal, so they aren't changed with the preset. One problem that could happen now is, changes to controller or velocity scaling are saved with the preset. That means that once you set up your velocity, pitch bend, midi CC scaling, etc it is changed as soon as you change presets. As a preset designer I really don't want to change any of those things as I'm assuming people set those up to fit their personal preferences. With them outside of the presets things will work better IMO. The only thing I'd want to have control over is turning velocity on/off, but that could be added as a single parameter/parameter. Of course there are a few other places these controls could go, but I think this would be keeping with the design of other melda plugins.

Presets

As I mentioned above, move the active preset tree to make more room. Not only does it take up space, but it is also confusing. The tree is there at the top of the screen, but there is a button called presets right above it. I imagine many people will think they're the same thing and wonder why they can't find certain presets. Also as it is now 50% or more of the controls are covered when switching presets and its impossible to minimize the active preset browser and switch active presets. People will either have to scroll or constantly minimize the tree when browsing.

Perhaps it would be easier to combine them in the preset window. When you click the button there would be 2 tabs, normal and active. They could be set up just like the active preset tree is now, just in a floating window. The Active presets would be what Vojtech described above or similar to what dmbaer made(I don't know if a preset manager can be built into it, but if it can that would be cool). The normal presets could be like what buing wants, a few macro controls that are easy to understand. People who want good sounds fast can use the normal presets and the people that want to make there own sounds(but don't want to waste time setting everything up) can use the active presets. Normal presets could also include things like tutorials and templates. You could also save what you tweak from an active preset as a normal preset, assuming it sounds good. I'd guess most people would use the normal presets and there would be many more normal presets than active presets. Those that don't like either can just stick to the edit screen.

Effects

The overall idea seems fine, but some presets don't need reverb or delay, so this idea might not work well. For example I doubt I would ever put reverb on a kickdrum and some basses don't need them either. Its not a terrible idea, but if the preset defaults with the reverb off(and most likely won't be turned on) it seems a bit pointless.

The reason to have a global FX bypass is so people don't have to keep switching off reverb, delay, etc. Many people use sends for reverb/delay, so if they have a send already hooked up it creates a mess. Other people just hate reverb and delay. From what I've seen on forums this is the biggest complaint about presets and people complain about how preset designers use to much reverb and they have to switch it off every time.


Right now its ok if you minimize the active preset tree, but of course there is only 1 preset. When there are hundreds and thousands it will get really annoying minimizing and scrolling all the time.

[dmbaer]

This is a response to some of the issues – more may follow as this conversation develops.

Global Parameters:

There seems to be tension between effective use of screen real estate and availability of controls that most users will not need to access the considerable majority of the time. Everyone needs easy access to Volume. Few need access to master tuning, but when they do need it, they really, really need it. So, I would suggest to have the top group (Globals) have just a very few controls. Have a second group, either immediately below or always at the very bottom, which has the infrequently-accessed but occasionally-essential controls. Default that group to a collapsed state.

Envelope:

Please do not make this a standard in the header area. Not all sounds benefit from having all four parameters available. Many, like an organ-type sound, can benefit from a release time, but attack, decay and sustain are of little value. Put this with the generator controls when they are appropriate. But making them standard and required in the header area is at odds with some types of sounds.

Per-Voice-FX vs. General-FX:

I would suggest at least giving the sound designer the leeway to put per-voice FX controls either in the Generator group or in the FX group, depending upon what makes the most sense. Where a per-voice effect is integral to the timbre, allow the sound designer to put such control with other Generator controls.

Required FX:

I have no problem with having reverb standard. The sound designer and synth designer both want people to experience sounds in the best possible way, and a bit of reverb is almost always going to make things sound a bit better.

Delay is entirely another matter. I would argue that it does not even belong with some sounds. I auditioned a large Kontakt synth library once in which the developer turned on the delay effect for every friggin’ preset. I drove me nuts. I wanted to hear the sounds without that distraction. So, if a delay must be present, then at least make the standard require that it will normally be turned off, but exceptions would be allowed at the discretion of the sound designer.

Likewise with other FX. Make the standard be that they are disabled by default except when they are an integral part of the sound. A phaser effect will not usually be integral, so it should default to off. But occasionally is will be integral, and for that preset, it could be allowed to default to some on setting at the sound designer’s discretion.

As to a standard set of FX being required, here’s another problem I see with that. The model preset has such limited controls for each effect, they are of little use. If I wanted an EQ, I’d probably want at least three bands. The delay in the model preset would most often be entirely inadequate. As a sound designer, I would want the latitude to present a few essential effects and have those nicely equipped with a decent set of controls, not just the standard ones. Likewise, I would want the latitude to not be forced to offer a one-knob compressor if made little sense. Even lower-end DAWs these days come with a stock delay, for example, that’s far more capable that the one in the model preset.

FX-Bypass:

As stated a little earlier, if the standard is to keep most FX off by default, we don’t need this so much. Reverb would be one exception here, but even then, I’d make the standard to keep the default setting conservative.

Presets within Presets:

Before this topic even came up for the first time, two of my three well-fleshed-out presets included this. It just seemed to be a natural solution. It won’t work for every type of sound, but by all means let’s have a guideline for what presets-within-presets look like and how they work in most cases (but again, allow the sound designer some latitude when the situation warrants).

[Chandlerhimself]

Maybe a solution to the FX bypass problem would be have the last MP(MP100 I beleive) used as FX bypass. Instead of it turning off the FX section it would be hooked up to individual fx that the creator chose. Most of the time it would be used on all the fx, but people could choose to exclude some fx if they wanted. For example someone might want exclude EQ or there might be an IR that alters the tone.

Having it as the last MP shouldn’t interfere with anyone’s active preset and hopefully won’t waste too much space. Hopefully this would give people the ability to remove fx while browsing without ruining people’s presets or making the GUI look terrible.

[dmbaer]

Maybe a solution to the FX bypass problem would be have the last MP(MP100 I beleive) used as FX bypass. Instead of it turning off the FX section it would be hooked up to individual fx that the creator chose. Most of the time it would be used on all the fx, but people could choose to exclude some fx if they wanted.

While this idea has some merit, there's a problem. Diligent sound designers will already be bypassing FX modules when not in use. Having a global bypass as well is messy. Sure, it can be done. But I expect a lot of sound designers would be challenged and drop the individual bypass for performance sake if made to honor a global bypass standard.

[Chandlerhimself]

While this idea has some merit, there's a problem. Diligent sound designers will already be bypassing FX modules when not in use. Having a global bypass as well is messy. Sure, it can be done. But I expect a lot of sound designers would be challenged and drop the individual bypass for performance sake if made to honor a global bypass standard.

This idea isn't a global bypass it only bypasses the FX the designer chooses. Also it would be easy to have both individual and global bypass together. I'm guessing most people would have the effect bypassed at 0%. If that's the case then just have the bypass button turn that MP to 0% when it is engaged. While its not the prettiest solution and it might differ a bit depending on how you set up your fx, its not particular hard to time consuming(assuming you aren't using 15 fx).

I'm just spit balling ideas, but I've heard people complain about FX on presets and how annoying it is to turn them off for every patch. On the other hand I've also heard the synths without FX don't sell well and one of the selling points of MSF is the FX. Its impossible to make everyone happy, but an FX bypass might come close.

[MeldaProduction]

Ok, so - the global FX bypass is actually available for modulation (despite not being visible anywhere ), so it would be easy to make a switch for that if needed.

Now, the idea behind FX and stuff is to have a predefined set even if it is not too useful. I mean you can have a bass, where reverb makes not much sense, but there will always be a person, that could like that. Is it worth including then? No idea... Anyways there's no point in having a 3 band EQ or some advanced parameters for each effect, the idea is that a person goes there, touches a knob, likes it/doesn't, that's it. He can always go to edit screen to tweak the details.

As for global settings, I agree that they should be below. I even think that the volume is not relevant, because the loudness of the sounds should be normalized and there's always volume in the DAW. But imho removing the preset browser is out of question. It would make the workflow harder to use and it would be a major difference compared to MXXX.

[MeldaProduction]

But I think the active preset browser may be on the left instead... seems fine to me, will try.

[jmg8]

I must say, I really don't like the idea of having a global bypass for FX.
The FX will mostly be part of "the sound" and disabling them while browsing can make them sound very different and often not even work correctly.
I would prefer a rule.

I also do not like the idea of forcing certain FXs in presets (like reverb).
Again I would prefer a rule.


Rule 1. All FX (per voice or global) should be contained in an FX tab on the easy screen.
Rule 2. All FX must each have a bypass/enable switch.
Rule 3. All presets must contain at least 4 FX (these can be turned off as default)

[MeldaProduction]

I think the global FX switch may be useful, sometimes, who knows. Anyways I'd personally rather avoid tabs, but these may be needed if we run out of screen estate. I'd also prefer if for each effect there's a simple "dry/wet", which would bypass it for 0%. But I quite like the idea of having at least 4 FX, makes sense to me. There won't be a possibility to map each to a specific MIDI controller, but I suppose that isn't needed anyways, and one may just map "4" effects, and these MP indices would be predefined.

[jmg8]

I'd also prefer if for each effect there's a simple "dry/wet", which would bypass it for 0%.

The problem with this though is that the user will not be able to quickly turn on/off the effect without loosing the dry/wet value. But I guess it would not be so bad if there will be a global FX bypass.

If there is to be a global FX bypass, I hope it will not be lockable. I hate the idea someone can keep all FX bypassed while browsing through presets.

Also if there is a global FX bypass will this bypass per voice fx also?

[MeldaProduction]

Damn! That's a good point, so no global FX bypass then . About per-FX bypass, there are some strong points there!

[jmg8]

Another small advantage to having bypass/enable buttons is that it also visually shows the state of the effect by greying out the whole panel. Not a big deal, but makes it faster at a glance to see which effects are on or off.

[jmg8]

I have an idea for the FX requirement.
So we make a really nice MXXX1 preset that has 4 FX. Let's say a chorus, distortion, delay and reverb each in their own panel. Just with a few simple but effective controls each and enable switches.

Now if the preset creator knows what FX they want to use, so be it, let them have the flexibility to make it how they wish. But 8 times out of 10 the preset creator may just want a standard set of FX, in this case, they can simply just insert the "pre-made FX" into the modular.

This way probably most presets will have a standard well-made set of FX. But it doesn't force the creators to use them.