What the heck “DEPTH” even means?

[ward0]

What it is, really?

It's a term often quoted when taking about the usage of analog gear in the tracking and mixing process.

I mean, things like frequency and phase shifting and harmonic distortion are scientific and you can analyse them, but what the hell is “depth”? How can you analyse it and even identify it?

I mix through headphones (yes, not recommended at all, I know that), and I never clearly heard and understood what this “depth” meant.

Can someone clarify it to me and perhaps give some examples on how can I clearly identify and hear it?

[plexuss]

A couple things: first, music appreciation is not scientific, in fact it's the opposite, its highly subjective. Technical knowledge, analysis and work are only a part of what it takes to make what some might consider good music.

Depth is usually used to refer to 2 things: either the amount that somethings is affecting another, or how deep the sound-stage is. I think you are referring to the second use. When using speakers, its possible to manipulate (or capture) the position of a source not only L to R but also top to bottom and front to back. Depth in this sense is how deep front to back seems. the whole nature of the way the audio works within the 3D space around speakers is the soundstage, the depth beeing front to back. You won't get this on headphones.

It's real and has been proven: if you sit and listen to a small ensemble in a large space and close your eyes you will be able to perceive in 3 dimensions where the sound of each instryment is coming from. The idea is that this should be able to be recorded with 2 mics, just as our bodies work, with 2 ears. With the right mics and recording process this 3D sense of sound can be recorded and reproduced. The aspect of depth (and height) are difficult to create because they are created by complex sound and body interactions. Doiung this synthetically is difficult but not impossible.

With cross-talk tech you can simulate this with headphones - look for 3D audio or ambisonic tech.

[ward0]

A couple things: first, music appreciation is not scientific, in fact it's the opposite, its highly subjective. Technical knowledge, analysis and work are only a part of what it takes to make what some might consider good music.

Depth is usually used to refer to 2 things: either the amount that somethings is affecting another, or how deep the sound-stage is. I think you are referring to the second use. When using speakers, its possible to manipulate (or capture) the position of a source not only L to R but also top to bottom and front to back. Depth in this sense is how deep front to back seems. the whole nature of the way the audio works within the 3D space around speakers is the soundstage, the depth beeing front to back. You won't get this on headphones.

It's real and has been proven: if you sit and listen to a small ensemble in a large space and close your eyes you will be able to perceive in 3 dimensions where the sound of each instryment is coming from. The idea is that this should be able to be recorded with 2 mics, just as our bodies work, with 2 ears. With the right mics and recording process this 3D sense of sound can be recorded and reproduced. The aspect of depth (and height) are difficult to create because they are created by complex sound and body interactions. Doiung this synthetically is difficult but not impossible.

With cross-talk tech you can simulate this with headphones - look for 3D audio or ambisonic tech.

Thank you, plexuss!

Sad that I can't hear it with headphones, I can't afford monitors RN, but I'm gonna to search about the things you mentioned.

[plexuss]

Thank you, plexuss!

Sad that I can't hear it with headphones, I can't afford monitors RN, but I'm gonna to search about the things you mentioned.

Keep in mind that this sense of depth is highly subjective - in fact the whole nature of the perception of sound-stage is. Some will argue with you that it doesn't exist and other will tell you it does - pretty much like everything else that is subjective in audio. It depends on the source material and the reproduction technology but more importantly on the listener's physiology and psychology.

[experimental.crow]

you may find this thread of interest ...

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=512778

[dubguy99]

"Depth" in relation to analog gear generally means one or multiple of these:

1) Increased stereo width due to stereo crosstalk
2) More texture due to additional harmonics
3) Improved front-to-back soundstage due to smoothed transients through saturation
4) Perceived increase of focus in the frequency spectrum due to subtle lowend/topend rolloff and/or boost

[glokraw]

Can someone clarify it to me and perhaps give some examples on how can I clearly identify and hear it?

Allowing for air movement, and physical barriers,
a sound dissipates in both scientific and artistic ways,
measurable, and (hopefully) enjoyable.
You can yell, or fire a rifle, into a canyon,
and hear natural delay and reverb effects. In our audio,
the way sounds 'tail off', will effect perceived depth,
so accurate sound envelopes, and a variety of good
reverbs and delays, will enhance your creation of depth.
Sounds can be heard moving from side to side,
but don't strictly tail off that way. Our perception
is surround, and plugging the ears doesn't prevent
hearing, as sound waves travel through our body,
at their desire, not ours.

In stereo, you may have filters sweeps and effects moving
from side to side, but there will always be some sense
of the sounds tailing off 'into the canyon', masked as
it may be, by drums and other rythmic elements that
keep a fairly constant presence.
The better you headphones/rooms/ monitors are, the better
your possibilities will be to experience and replicate depth.

To me, a really warm analog pad sound, is emitting
millions of tiny sparks, like a neon glow,
whereas a crunchy guitar tone,
is emitting far fewer and larger sparks, like one would have
in a campfire made of resin filled wood like cedar/pine.
Cheers

[sl1200mk2]

Sad that I can't hear it with headphones, I can't afford monitors RN, but I'm gonna to search about the things you mentioned.

You can hear it with headphones and you probably already are. It's just that you don't know (yet) what qualities to look for and/or what to identify with that term. For me, it was the more or less the same as learning how to hear various compression and EQ characteristics. Unfortunately, it's easier IMO with EQ and compression, because you can more readily overdo it to hear the desired effect. Once you know what to listen for it becomes easier and more apparent. It's just a matter of training your ears.

Can someone clarify it to me and perhaps give some examples on how can I clearly identify and hear it?

If you have a song of yours (something you know well) you can PM to me and I can run it through some of the outboard gear I use. Again, while it's subjective you should absolutely be able to hear "depth" it adds. A key to this will be using a process or plugin to do a carefully level matched A/B comparison to the original. I use MeterPlugs Perception for this, but many options are available. I'm sure there's something you can demo if needed.

EDIT: Sorry, Perception won't work in this case thinking about it, because it has to be in the same chain as the outboard or FX. Something like Metric A/B or similar should work though.

[jancivil]

Yes, and some headphones are more forthcoming than others.

[digitalboytn]

If you jump into the deep end of a pool and your swimming skills aren't up to scratch,then it may well be considered that "you are out of your depth"

This can lead to many unfortunate circumstances,including possible drowning,which is not entirely desirable...

But this is only one explanation of what the word "depth" can imply...

There are many wise souls here on KVR who will describe it in much more colourful terms than my limited mental capacity will allow

[eytanmich123]

IMO, depth is NOT subjective. our interpretation of its aesthetics - IS.

The easiest way to look at it is like that :

You are looking at a pool. your eyes can see (usually) just the water's outer plane. maybe a LITTLE deeper.

Now, lets say someone has given you a special pair of glasses... that enables you to see DEEP "into" the water. you can see EVERYTING (or - almost everything) TOP TO BOTTOM.

sometimes you see things you like (say: a bra and underwear that some woman left inside the water ), sometimes you see things you don't want to see (things I won't mention... ).
the thing is that you can "see" DEEP INTO the water - not just the outer edge ("water" being the water content of the pool - which translates to the whole of your audio - freq, dyn - from low volume info all the way to the strongest volume parts, panning etc.).

Audio is like the pool's water : there is a limited amount of info you can "see" (ie. hear. and I'm not referring to "listen" - the former is a passive act. the latter is an active act) - standing on the verge of pool's plane (which translates to listening to your audio).

Tools (of ALL SORTS - not just compressors) can help one to "see into" the audio - the process that "lifts" very subtle details and "exposes" them. when subtle details are being able to be exposed by a given processor - it is considered to have "depth".

(again, be it a compressor, a colorful EQ, distortion boxes of all sorts...or what-not. and they can be relevant and/or desired information that contributes to the audio - OR NOT)

[do_androids_dream]

Literally - depth. Front to back depth spread across the stereo image. It's a '3 dimensional' quality to music. In my role as mastering engineer I quite often create depth in very flat sounding mixes. I have many techniques for this.

[SoundPorn]

Depth in music to me means, how long and far into a song can you look and listen and keep hearing things. How far below the surface of drums and melody does the song have hidden.

[jancivil]

Andrew Souter has a couple of good posts regarding spaciality in the 2CAudio Precedence thread.

[MogwaiBoy]

Depth in music is super subjective. I often use it to describe bands or artists that have a authentic sincerity and their songs illicit an emotive response, as opposed to something fake and manufactured.

From a sound perspective, it's a mix of great overall balance of frequencies plus 3-dimensional spatial qualities, of which there are thousands of combined ways to achieve (panning/width and so on). In essense it's about putting on headphones and having the sensation that the music is surrounding your head, or that the band is on stage directly front of you etc. That cliche "when the chorus hits it's like the music jumps out of the speakers" also applies.