Twangström Public Beta (Update: rev 8131)

Official support for: u-he.com
sascha
KVRian
1031 posts since 2 Oct, 2001 from Berlin, Germany

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:39 am

Hm... let's try not mixing up two things:

- usage/workflow: dry/wet setting is is a knob-scaling thing. Currently we have it pretty much like on ColourCopy; leftmost the wet part fades in exponentially and rightmost the dry part fades out exponentially. That's what I'd actually call 'natural', as our sense of hearing is not linear. For instance, many guitarists have the problem on pedals and amps that their reverb is already too much within the first few degrees of a knob turn. We wanted to avoid that. If the knob were linear you'd hear the audio drenched in reverb within the very first percent. This is not an amplitude thing, it's about that other aspect:

- perception: spring reverb is invasive. It's not a lush, gentle studio-grade reverb to blend sources nicely, when you have it it's all over the place. That's why it's sometimes so polarizing. "I'm having a hard time finding a sweet spot" is natural with spring reverb. It either needs a bit of experience (the producer) or it just needs a good portion of mindlessness (the gigging rock guitarist). In the latter case the music is mostly built around that effect, while producers often want it the other way round. Which is also why devices like Lexicon became studio classics. They kind of 'melt' with the audio and can have a great impact even when barely audible. This is not the case with spring reverb, at least not with the 'tank types'. This is also why AKG once built that BX20, they had understood that producers needed something more easy at hand, more room-like, less invasive, and they've made huge efforts at ironing typical 'spring' properties out.

So, for us making a product it is important to differenciate between workflow, function/malfunction and the perception of things we simulate. In communication, this might come across as being anal about it but we can only improve things when we know we're talking about the same.

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Niowiad
KVRist
266 posts since 25 Jan, 2017

Re: Twangström Public Beta

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:06 am

This makes sense. It sounds different from most mix knobs I'm used to hear, but I cannot really argue with it.

By 'natural' (possibly used improperly) I meant a more cohesive result rather than hearing them as 2 distinct sound sources, which might actually be the natural and more authentic way of hearing a physical spring reverb.

And again thinking of it I also previously described Twangstrom as the one sounding more realistic.

My error might be comparing it to the two PSP spring verbs, which despite what they're emulating, might have taken a different approach targeted more to a mixing environment. Haven't tried the softube spring.

sascha
KVRian
1031 posts since 2 Oct, 2001 from Berlin, Germany

Re: Twangström Public Beta

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:22 am

In the analog domain, manufacturers use different pot types (lin/log/neg-log) and different values to slightly tailor the voltage division over the suitable range. In software, we can (and we should) fine-tune the mix knob to the underlying process. And this can vary drastically from one plugin to another even within our own portfolio. It's attention to details, and we treat a 'dumb' thing like a mix parameter equal to others.

"2 distinct sound sources": Rule of thumb is that if two souces are more than 10ms apart you begin to hear them seperately. (On transient-rich material this can be shorter)
Now, look at a typical type-4 reverb tank, what is the delay size? It's 34 & 41ms. Bingo.

elxsound
KVRAF
4581 posts since 18 Aug, 2007 from NYC

Re: Twangström Public Beta

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:23 am

Niowiad wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:06 am
This makes sense. It sounds different from most mix knobs I'm used to hear, but I cannot really argue with it.

By 'natural' (possibly used improperly) I meant a more cohesive result rather than hearing them as 2 distinct sound sources, which might actually be the natural and more authentic way of hearing a physical spring reverb.

And again thinking of it I also previously described Twangstrom as the one sounding more realistic.

My error might be comparing it to the two PSP spring verbs, which despite what they're emulating, might have taken a different approach targeted more to a mixing environment. Haven't tried the softube spring.
In a mixing environment, you would place Twangstrom on a send/bus and set the wet mix to 100%.

It honestly should stand out and not blend well at all (but there are ways of “gluing” the sound together in the end). I typically would not use this on a snare hit, unless I really wanted a metallic sound, but generally that’s the thing you avoid (but there are no rules, so use however you want). Spring verbs certainly have their place in mixing, but you usually reach for a spring verb because you want to hear a spring verb sound.

Plate and springs are two verb choices that are not natural at all, and spring being the more obvious in your face “fake” verb, but again it has its place.

I have not heard a spring reverb plugin I’ve really liked before. I own and use Softube’s but I honestly hate the sound and use of it.

joe_b
KVRer
16 posts since 21 Nov, 2017

Re: Twangström Public Beta

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:25 am

What do you guys think about a pre-delay control? I know it doesn't make sense physically for a spring reverb, but do you think it could make sense in production? I'll try and delay my send bus in the afternoon.

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Russell Grand
KVRAF
1544 posts since 22 May, 2017

Re: Twangström Public Beta

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:43 am

glokraw wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:52 am
Russell Grand wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:41 pm
...just can't relate to all the gushing fanboys. Decent sound but way too safe.
Trash 2 is almost always on sale somewhere. If U-he made
plugins that sounded that bad, they'd sound bad AND
cost us more money :dog:
:hihi: Trash2 is awesome though. :smack:

elxsound
KVRAF
4581 posts since 18 Aug, 2007 from NYC

Re: Twangström Public Beta

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:49 am

joe_b wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:25 am
What do you guys think about a pre-delay control? I know it doesn't make sense physically for a spring reverb, but do you think it could make sense in production? I'll try and delay my send bus in the afternoon.
It’s not there on a real plate either, but adding a pre-delay when using a plate can sometimes be helpful. In other words... I’d never not do something just because it wasn’t a built in feature in the “real world” because if it sounds good, then that’s all that matters.

elxsound
KVRAF
4581 posts since 18 Aug, 2007 from NYC

Re: Twangström Public Beta

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:51 am

Russell Grand wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:43 am
glokraw wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:52 am
Russell Grand wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:41 pm
...just can't relate to all the gushing fanboys. Decent sound but way too safe.
Trash 2 is almost always on sale somewhere. If U-he made
plugins that sounded that bad, they'd sound bad AND
cost us more money :dog:
:hihi: Trash2 is awesome though. :smack:
It definitely is, but try using some of the Soundtoys tools too.

sascha
KVRian
1031 posts since 2 Oct, 2001 from Berlin, Germany

Re: Twangström Public Beta

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:35 am

You might need predelay on a plate. They're fast. Speed of sound in metal is 10 - 15x faster than through air.

Garzita
KVRist
100 posts since 25 Jul, 2005 from Vancouver, Canada

Re: Twangström Public Beta

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:16 am

Thanks for letting us take this for an early test drive, I do have to admit that I am on the fence with this one, as somehow I believe that maybe a MSEG or MidiMap would be a much better modulation choice for the Springs than the current options.
The pure reverb itself takes a lot of tweaking on the filter to get it to sound nice, and I mean just nice, I still have yet to make it sound great, maybe that is just me and personal taste.

But when you couple it with ColourCopy or MFM2 then it really shines and you are able to get some amazing dub, space style old school sounds that you can get lost to, and that is a shame as it feels wrong buying an extra plugin to make another one excel.

I also cant help but feel disappointed at all the emulations in the plugin market in general not only from u-he, it seems that developers have found that the older, wealthier market is the one spending, therefore all these plugins being made; and I can understand that, yet I think that maybe thinking further from the box may be needed?

I would have preferred a Filterscape2 with all the new advances that guys at u-he have made with Diva filters, etc with more of that whacky modulating EQ, than putting out more emulations out on the market.
Just my 2 cents. I am still a big fan of u-he products, and own almost all his plugins so please dont start with the insults and mud throwing, this is just my personal view on the plugin market and how something like Twangstrom {great name, btw} just makes me go: ...meh...
But then a strange fear gripped me
and I just couldn't ask....

joe_b
KVRer
16 posts since 21 Nov, 2017

Re: Twangström Public Beta

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:43 am

Garzita wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:16 am
The pure reverb itself takes a lot of tweaking on the filter to get it to sound nice, and I mean just nice, I still have yet to make it sound great, maybe that is just me and personal taste.
Depends on what you expect from it imho. If you expect this to be your go-to reverb for vocals than you're not gonna be satisfied. If, however, you're looking for a spring verb that helps you get that good old days electric piano sounds than this is instant gold.
Garzita wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:16 am
But when you couple it with ColourCopy or MFM2 then it really shines and you are able to get some amazing dub, space style old school sounds that you can get lost to, and that is a shame as it feels wrong buying an extra plugin to make another one excel.
For my cents, I'm not interested in some super experimental "dub, space style old school sounds", whatever that means. I found this verb shines in my application and so I'm happy. Can't make it work for everybody!
Garzita wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:16 am
I also cant help but feel disappointed at all the emulations in the plugin market in general not only from u-he, it seems that developers have found that the older, wealthier market is the one spending, therefore all these plugins being made; and I can understand that, yet I think that maybe thinking further from the box may be needed?
Imho there's plenty of people who try to revolutionize synths and effects, but very few who are really good at modelling old stuff, U-He being one of them. Native Instruments, as an example on the other side, haven't released a synth/fx plugin I found useful since Monark and Reaktor 6. So find out what you want, then find the company and plugin that does what you want. Just my two cents on this. Also this is probably off topic...

joe_b
KVRer
16 posts since 21 Nov, 2017

Re: Twangström Public Beta

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:37 am

sascha wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:35 am
You might need predelay on a plate. They're fast. Speed of sound in metal is 10 - 15x faster than through air.
Makes sense. I just played around with delaying the spring verb and i gotta say it helps me clean up quite a bit in combination with slight ducking with the env follower.

muki
KVRer
16 posts since 14 Jul, 2018

Re: Twangström Public Beta

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:46 am

yes!

i just counter-checked Twangstrom with my old AKG/TAPCO 6000R,
which has a builtin springreverb, and imho twangstrom comes
very very very close if not kind of identical

and:
(real) springreverbs do have rumble in the lo-end
and they do not sound all that "pretty"
and they are very material dependent

and as often with u-he:
the more you play with it, the better it gets :-)

its the subtleties that imho are very well defined
which sets twangstrom apart

and with the modmatrix you can create the weirdest effects

so after 3 days playing with it i might say: well done, u-he! :-)

additional EQ, more modulation slots and tape/labels would be fine, though ;-)

joe_b
KVRer
16 posts since 21 Nov, 2017

Re: Twangström Public Beta

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:04 am

muki wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:46 am
additional EQ, more modulation slots and tape/labels would be fine, though ;-)
Let me add pre-delay and an A/B switch to the list.

HcDoom
KVRian
877 posts since 18 Feb, 2012

Re: Twangström Public Beta

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:10 am

Cool product, but still waiting for Zebra 3.... :)

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