Do I “need” analog synths?

[whyterabbyt]

The other downside is that the finer the sensitivity you give it, the farther you have to turn the knob for any meaningful change. Too high a setting and you have to turn too much to get any progress. Too low a setting and it's easier to progress, but you're more likely to hear the stepping. Seems the knobs are not high resolution enough to speed through ALL values in truly high resolution (it's really just giving you MORE steps, not higher resolution), but this is at least some kind of progress (I feel like I've seen this before and had forgotten about it).

A lower increment in value per step is higher resolution.

The knobs on the Kore are encoders, not pots. Encoders output a certain number of pulses based on how far they are rotated... N pulses equals a 'step'. Translating that to a value is inherently a calculation based on incrementing by a certain amount per step. At an increment of 1 'whatever' per step you're at the maximum resolution of the encoder. You cant make the physical steps smaller, the number of steps per full rotation is a physical limitation of a given encoder.

[Jace-BeOS]

I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm not willing to eschew control. I'm willing to eschew MIDI control, so long as there's an analog control on the hardware in question. The only hardware I have with front panel controls that don't cause stepping is the Access Virus TI (it uses smoothing internally, but this creates some latency).

[...]
In other words; what are you wanting to do?

I want to do a few things, but not all are necessarily connected to each other:

1. I want to find a way to control existing synths with no stepping/zipper noise in the parameter changes.

• My hardware synths are all digital; they use standard low-resolution 0-127 ranged controls. The hardware I have with front-panel controls are a Korg M3m, a Roland V-Synth XT, a Virus TI (the only one that smooths steps internally), and an Alesis Fusion 8HD. This seems to be the default standard of all MIDI instruments (128 steps, no smoothing). The resolution is not always an issue, but it sure becomes one with filter sweeps at high resonance.

• Software synths can only have their parameters "performed" via MIDI CC. No controller lets me manipulate software parameters at any finer resolution than 0-127. The exception seems to be the Kore controller and Kore software hosting plugins, because it's automation parameter changes, not MIDI CC.

2. I want to have a more expressive controller for playing software (and MIDI hardware?) synths. MPE seems to be what I want. These kinds of controllers are few and expensive. I've had my eyes on the Roli Seaboard, but it is of no use without a computer. I can't afford the Haken Continuum and don't want the kind of control scheme of the Linnstrument, though I'd live with it if someone donated one to me, ha ha ha... it's also very expensive.

3. I want to play with semi-modular analog synthesizers. For self-education, for fun, and for whatever different kind of creativity it might inspire. Analog controls don't have stepping, unless I'm missing something (I just saw a video of a Moog Little Fatty with lots of stepping shown in the filter sweeping... because it's a digitally controlled synth). Because MIDI is so damned low resolution, and I'm sick of menu diving and mousing all day, I want something more hands-on, immediate, and free of the downsides of digital control (yes, I know there are all kinds of downsides to not having MIDI).

If you're looking for realtime CV sequencing (SQ-1) and a precise pitchbend controller (Eowave etc) then are those front-panel analog controls for realtime performance? (implying working with purely live recording in single takes)

Yes.

Or for more granularity in controls for presets?

As I understand it, there's no such thing as a preset with synths that have front-panel analog controls. You make a sound, use it, and then it's gone as soon as you change settings or move the cabling (unless you take a LOT of notes and photos).

FWIW, parameter smoothing isnt a latency factor in softsynths,(technically it shouldnt even be one in digital hardware)

Hm. Feels like there's latency to me on my Virus TI. None of the plugins I have seem to do smoothing of incoming CC, but I haven't tested for this extensively.

and VST parameter automation values are 32-bit.

Sure, but how do you change automation values live? MIDI controllers, right? There's the 0-127 issue. I've also tried drawing automation into a track, finding the end result is still locked to a 0-127 scale system. Am I misunderstanding something about all this? Kore manipulates the automation values, so obviously this can be done, but that seems to be the ONLY hardware/software combo that does it, and Kore was abandoned by its developers.

I'd expect you're probably more likely to find zippering at the synth end in older (80s era for example) digitally-controlled analog synths than softsynths.

I experience it with all of my digital synths (except the Virus TI) because of the input limitation, and most of my stuff is from the late 90s through 2000s (it's all MIDI, but also limited by MIDI's resolution).

I have experienced it with all the softsynths I've tested, again because of the control input problem. Maybe some of them have smoothing and I've not noticed it. I've only somewhat recently (the last few years) become aware of the issue and have not explicitly gone through all my plugins to see which ones create zipper noise on MIDI CC changes. I have not found a way to manipulate automation data in higher resolution than MIDI's 7-bit scale. I have found no useful, no actionable, instructions on using 14-bit MIDI CC.

The other downside is that the finer the sensitivity you give it, the farther you have to turn the knob for any meaningful change. Too high a setting and you have to turn too much to get any progress. Too low a setting and it's easier to progress, but you're more likely to hear the stepping. Seems the knobs are not high resolution enough to speed through ALL values in truly high resolution (it's really just giving you MORE steps, not higher resolution), but this is at least some kind of progress (I feel like I've seen this before and had forgotten about it).

A lower increment in value per step is higher resolution.

The knobs on the Kore are encoders, not pots. Encoders output a certain number of pulses based on how far they are rotated... N pulses equals a 'step'. Translating that to a value is inherently a calculation based on incrementing by a certain amount per step. At an increment of 1 'whatever' per step you're at the maximum resolution of the encoder. You cant make the physical steps smaller, the number of steps per full rotation is a physical limitation of a given encoder.

I understand this. I'm saying is that the encoder steps aren't close together enough, or packed in densely enough, so that you can zip through all 3600 software steps by quickly turning the knob one full rotation. It needs many rotations to step through all 3600 possible steps. The encoders' steps close together enough to eliminate dead space (i've watched the values; there's some physical knob motion doing nothing between value changes).

I'm still playing with this to see where the sweet spot is for different types of controls, because clearly the entire range isn't needed. You need fewer steps the faster you want to change values. I'm finding a "KoreController Sens" setting of 800 works well enough. The default of 270 is entirely insufficient and I'd like to be able to change it globally. Any idea how?

[S0lo]

The other downside is that the finer the sensitivity you give it, the farther you have to turn the knob for any meaningful change.

I personally call this "Fake resolution". Analog knobs almost never respond this way. These endless rotary encoders are good for dialing a precise value while editing. Almost never good while performing. (unless you want to tie a rope to a knob and pull it hard )

[acYm]

I'm playing with Kore 2 and Kore 1 Controller on my Snow Leopard system. Changing "KoreController Sens" on a knob in the GUI lets me use finer increments for value changes. This is nice, though it requires changing the default setting every time you load a patch, which is a PITA. How do you edit the default in the templates?

The other downside is that the finer the sensitivity you give it, the farther you have to turn the knob for any meaningful change. Too high a setting and you have to turn too much to get any progress. Too low a setting and it's easier to progress, but you're more likely to hear the stepping. Seems the knobs are not high resolution enough to speed through ALL values in truly high resolution (it's really just giving you MORE steps, not higher resolution), but this is at least some kind of progress (I feel like I've seen this before and had forgotten about it). Maybe a balance can be struck there. Until now, I've not been able to get a smooth filter sweep on the MS-20 plugin.

However: This is still a LOT of mousing and menu diving for such a simple task, and voltage-controlled filters generally don't step OR force you to turn the knob a million times. Right??

I don't have the ms-20 plugin, but while it's a classic, it's quite old. if a synth has a zippy automation parameter (like the good old Massive), neither Kore or anything can help with that, sadly. but at this point there are more synths with a precise filter than not. I do have Mono/Poly, which was released a few years later. it does have a fine-grain parameter for the filter. on the template I put the cutoff at 460°. init patch, reso halfway up, tweaking the filter produces no zipping or whistling at all. "whistling" is what I call it when you can make the filter res "play notes" from moving in large stepped increments because of a bad parameter.

to use the ms-20 if it's zippy... load the synth... create a Group channel next to it, put The Drop in there, output the ms20 Source channel into the Group. now both plugins are receiving midi, audio is coming out of the filter, just like it's one unit. save that as a KoreSound for easy recall. enjoy an actual ms-20, sort of.

to make loading stuff quick and easy, you gotta know this so you have everything at your fingertips in the right-click menu.
setting up some categories in your User Sounds folder, for various types of templates, also helps. you'll want to learn the outstanding browser if you're into it.
with Kore you typically create an Autoload in your daw with all your synths loaded in a Kore each, possibly with FX chains also setup... with everything pre-loaded, as though you were stepping into a fixed hardware studio, you won't need more than 10% mouse usage throughout the project, and mostly at the end for arrangement and editing.

[vurt]

3. I want to play with semi-modular analog synthesizers.

for that, yes you will need at least one analogue synth

[TheSynthScientist]

3. I want to play with semi-modular analog synthesizers.

for that, yes you will need at least one analogue synth

[acYm]

Kore manipulates the automation values, so obviously this can be done, but that seems to be the ONLY hardware/software combo that does it, and Kore was abandoned by its developers.

there are/were alternatives. the first is an Automap surface by novation... their implementation is almost as good as Kore, and their software even has a few advantages. namely, their wrapper is "invisible" so it allows you to work as usual, with plugins directly in the daw (though ultimately I think being able to make Kore chains is more fun); it also has stepped increments on a single button, something that would help me a lot in Kore. it was supported for longer than Kore, but now seems equally dead, with the new SL mk3 having shifted focus completely. this platform suffered from fragmentation, as it had a few different controllers with various configurations, be it a Nocturn or a SL, and you'd have to find or make a template for the one you had. there was never a whole lot of support, either from users or from novation, and while I saw a few fun and well-made templates, the overall experience was meh. lots of talk of bugs on the various forums. also, novation's knobs aren't very good at all, not nearly in the same league as Kore's, which has the most high-end feeling knobs you can get.

the other one is the akai advance platform. I was hopeful when I saw this, and while it seems well made overall, it seems to have critical shortcomings as well. adoption rate is low, they're not even able with the akai name to dislodge NI's pathetic new KK program from the market - that rings an alarm bell for me. I reckon that akai advance's problem in this modern age is that they only offer it in keyboard format, a bit like the doofuses at NI. not everyone needs a keyboard anymore, mine is set to the side while I have my launchpad pro next to my Kore, at the front.

the result from this situation is that nobody who develops VST's has any interest in making sure their software is made with high-end hardware control in mind - 12 years after the release of Kore 1, the idea that you can have proper solid software control with a universal hardware device is still largely underground. when I come across a VST that's really well made and allows me to make a strong or flawless template, it's a cause for celebration. only the devs with the biggest attention to detail and professionalism pull it off.

I personally call this "Fake resolution". Analog knobs almost never respond this way. These endless rotary encoders are good for dialing a precise value while editing. Almost never good while performing. (unless you want to tie a rope to a knob and pull it hard )

when you map an encoder to an automation parameter, it's like you're always holding shift. you always have the finest possible control that the parameter offers, then it's a matter of finding the sensitivity that makes it most usable. obviously, since it's a digital signal, there's no way of interpolating between the values if sensitivity is too low, but you still get the entire range available. so if you want to make a fast sweep, you can do it on a low-res assignment, and hear no stepping, and for a very slow sweep, have another, hi-rotation mapping, and also have no stepping. there's a distinction between sound-design oriented control pages and performance pages based on that.

you can see it when using an Elektron device... they always have this array of knobs, and they work similarly to Kore. there are parameters where you need a ton of rotations - it's the only way to make it work in a usable manner. for tuning parameters, I like 750°, 360 in either direction plus change, this typically allows the precision to return to zero without having to double click the knob.

iirc I've never felt like I needed to go above 475 on a filter to get full smoothness... still far below 540°, a commonly used rotation which is still very comfortable - with good twisting technique you get about 600° on a kore knob before you need to let go and initiate a second turn.

[JCJR]

In order of precedence I use notes, expression pedal, sustain on/off, Leslie speed fast/slow, mod wheel, pitch bend. Fairly sparse midi streams and zippering unlikely in my usage.

I mainly program sounds to respond to velocity etc, then play the tracks with hands and feet minimal real time knob twiddling. Just a real old fashioned geezer.

If folks gotta be twisting knobs a lot all the way thru tracks I guess zipper could be problematic.

Maybe some would think playing an AC piano track would be dull, it's not like there haven't been enough piano tracks recorded yet in the history of the world. All a matter of taste or mindset.

I don't get embarrassed playing yet another stupid half-fast piano track, but would personally feel somewhat embarrassed to play yet another filter sweep, especially hi-q filter sweeps. Admittedly irrational given that hi-q filter sweeps are neither innately more or less tacky than AC piano playing.

But hi-q filter sweep with a real selective filter will sound steppy on many pitched waveforms (except broadband noise). Ferinstance sawtooth has 1 harmonic in Octave 1, 2 harmonics in Octave 2, 4 harmonics in Octave 3 etc.

A narrow selective sweep thru 5 octaves of sawtooth down to the fundamental will sequentially "step" bring to the fore, ONLY 32 HARMONICS, REGARDLESS HOW SMOOTH THE FILTER IS SWEPT. Even if your filter scans thru thousands of continuous close spaced tunings, the ear will hear 32 steps as the narrow filter picks out those 32 harmonics one at a time.

That is not to deny that zippering can ever be a problem. Just saying, a lot of pitched waveforms will zipper on a hi-q sweep because of the math/physics of sound. Raising the scan resolution won't fix that kind of zippering.

[acYm]

I'm finding a "KoreController Sens" setting of 800 works well enough. The default of 270 is entirely insufficient and I'd like to be able to change it globally. Any idea how?

I wish there were a way to set a default rotation for all controls when starting a new template, or just in general. That's one thing that could have been improved, had NI not trashed the project before completion.

When you open a VST, you see the "plugin" control pages. These are either a useless mapping of the first 64 parameters published across 8 pages, unsorted, or in rare cases for a few old plugins, you get a template in the .ndp format, which we don't have an editor for, though it's a text-based thing, so technically usable. The new templates we make are in the other section, the "user" control pages, where all controls have been manually mapped and edited.

[justin3am]

The knobs on the Kore are encoders, not pots.

I'm pretty sure they are 360° pots, at least they were on Kore2. I can't find an example from commercial suppliers but Alpha and a few other suppliers make them.

[acYm]

^ 8 programmable touch-sensitive encoders from 30° to 3600° with light-intensity value indicators.
"360° pots"

[justin3am]

Hey, if you don't believe me, it's no sweat off my back.
Here is a spec sheet for a 360° pot similar to the one used in Kore2: http://www.3amnoise.net/R112TV-30B1-15F-0B2.5K-001.pdf

Also known as sine cosine potentiometer or non-linear potentiometer

It's like two pots on the same shaft, 90° out of phase with each other. You compare the position of the wipers across the two resistive elements to get a value. Depending on the support circuity, these can be used to get incremental pulses (like an encoder) or absolute values (like a standard pot) or both.

[acYm]

oh, I thought you were implying it had a fixed radius or something.
I don't know why it says "total rotation angle" when in reality it's going to be an abstract value decided by the software, I mean it's endless and relative.

[klapton]

I'm all too familiar with the stepping encountered with MIDI control of synths. Usually, the best way to get around that is to assign the control, such as filter cutoff, to a control that is more automated by the synth itself, such as envelope or lfo. All workarounds aside and despite the practically infinite palette of sounds that can be achieved in the digital domain, there really is nothing like the immediacy and level of control you have over a proper analog synth. I've only recently dipped my feet into real analog synths and can say that I now see the light.

I lucked out and got the Moog Grandmother as my first analog. And oh what a doozy. I had my eyes and ears on the Moog Sub Phatty because I was able to dial in an incredible bass sound within 5 minutes of playing one at a music shop. I refrained from getting that because I felt as though I'd be stuck with a one trick pony. I was tempted by the wealth of features in the Subsequent 37, but didn't bite. When the Grandmother was announced, I took the bait because of the semi-modular access. The Grandmother by itself is a lovely, intuitive and expressive synthesizer out of the box. And by itself, you get the feel for analog, how it sounds, and the very subtle nuances that give it the je ne sais quoi.

I've been playing with VA's and all types of synthesis for years. And I've run across some absolutely beautiful patches in various virtual analog synths. But I never really knew what it meant to imbue the analog sound. It's not just how it sounds with all of the controls fixed in a static position. It's how you're able to coax the slightest of deviation in sound from the slightest of adjustment on a control in a way that feels immediately tactile. Within that experience, I've never encountered the stepping anomaly, aside from frequency nodes on filtering, to distract me from the connection with the synthesizer.

With that experience from a well done analog synth, I now have a different perspective on how to program VA's and what to avoid in other digital synths. (For example, why try to make an analog sounding patch in an FM synth? Keep the FM sound alive by doing FM, not VA.) In a particular context of programming a VA patch, I now know what elements to add to the patch to give it a more analog feel. Granted, none of that gets past the previously mentioned tricks for dealing with controller/MIDI stepping.

[S0lo]

I personally call this "Fake resolution". Analog knobs almost never respond this way. These endless rotary encoders are good for dialing a precise value while editing. Almost never good while performing. (unless you want to tie a rope to a knob and pull it hard )

when you map an encoder to an automation parameter, it's like you're always holding shift. you always have the finest possible control that the parameter offers, then it's a matter of finding the sensitivity that makes it most usable. obviously, since it's a digital signal, there's no way of interpolating between the values if sensitivity is too low, but you still get the entire range available. so if you want to make a fast sweep, you can do it on a low-res assignment, and hear no stepping, and for a very slow sweep, have another, hi-rotation mapping, and also have no stepping. there's a distinction between sound-design oriented control pages and performance pages based on that.

you can see it when using an Elektron device... they always have this array of knobs, and they work similarly to Kore. there are parameters where you need a ton of rotations - it's the only way to make it work in a usable manner. for tuning parameters, I like 750°, 360 in either direction plus change, this typically allows the precision to return to zero without having to double click the knob.

iirc I've never felt like I needed to go above 475 on a filter to get full smoothness... still far below 540°, a commonly used rotation which is still very comfortable - with good twisting technique you get about 600° on a kore knob before you need to let go and initiate a second turn.

I'm sorry but thats just an implicit excuse for hardware manufacturers who seam to have not yet figured a way to properly implement 14bit MIDI on regular (none endless rotary) knobs despite the fact that MIDI supported it 30+ years ago. Check the muffwigller thread I posted above to see how people tried numerous controllers without being satisfied. My self included.