MIDI keyboard?

[fladd]

Hi there,

was hoping to get some input from everyone on midi keyboards (since I will be using it to play/control Zebra mostly I guess). From what I read on various threads in various forums, it appears that there are not many good choices. The two that continuously stick out are the Roland A-800 Pro, and the Samson Graphite 49. Both come with aftertouch and apparently pretty good key action.

The Roland has the pitch/modulation stick with spring loaded modulation (but also 9 faders, so modulation could be re-assigned), non-endless rotary knobs, slightly smaller keys (5%) and some people complain that the aftertouch is not sensitive enough (but apparently there is a simple fix that involves opening the device). Other than that, reviews are throughout positive. Apparently Depeche Mode use(d) them on stage when they tour, so they cannot be too bad Price is around 300 Euro.

The Samson is available for less than half that price and is often mentioned as a bit of an unexpected underrated secret. It has only 49 keys, normal pitchbend and modulation wheels, endless rotary knobs (with clicks though; but therefore two banks) and can be programmed without software, directly at the device. People seem quite happy with them, if they work, but there are several reports of them arriving broken or some of the keys stop working after a while, which doesn't sound too good.

Anyone any advice and/or experience with either of them (or even both)?

P.S.: Just to set some context, I like making sounds, but I am not a keyboard player. My last MIDI keyboard was an M-Audio Axiom 25 (the modwheel doesn't work anymore though), and I also have a JD-Xi that I sometimes use as a midi controller (but given the many reports of keys breaking off, I would like only use the keys when necessary, i.e. for the arpeggiator).

[clangorous]

I settled on the Akai Advance 61 and the Akai MPK 225. Both use the same keybed which for me has a great feel. Construction is good, feels solid even though it's plastic.

I went on a multi-year hunt for the perfect keyboard for "synthing." I found two things that helped me decide. I settled on the Akai keyboards because I like the Keys. They also have software called VIP that their keyboards come with (sells for $99 otherwise) that is specifically for solving the midi mapping challenge. I tried it and immediately uninstalled it. I found a better way of dealing with midi mapping - just use existing midi keyboard presets and midi map them using the mapper in the synth.

Next challenge is how the heck to map the controllers so that it actually resembles synth programming? What I found is that a combination of mapping the MAIN controls such as oscillators and envelopes and filters is good to do, but beyond that gets to be too much to work with. So I just map existing keyboard presets to my synth controls.

If I need more than one preset I'll select the next one in line and start midi mapping to that one and so on. For example with Hive I could map one preset to one Oscillator and related filters and envelopes, and use another preset for the other Osc side. Then pressing one button on the keyboard moves me between presets and my mapped controls.

I use the mouse and keyboard for adjusting anything ModMatrix related and browsing presets or any other detail work.

Good luck!

[chk071]

I think the Arturia KeyLab is quite alright as well. Bit more pricey, but, Arturia is known for good Aftertouch, and the keybeds are usually pretty decent as well.

Other than that, if you can live with only 8 encoders (which can be mapped, and switched through different mappings via their software though), the Native Instruments S series controllers are supposed to be very decent as well. Like the Arturia, it's a bit more pricey. If you have the money, i would surely spend it though, as, below that price level, you'll have to live with compromises. For example, i have a Novation Impulse 49, and, while i think that the keybed is good, i had issues with the encoders on one occasion (they started to jump in values after very moderate use), and with the pitch, which didn't center correctly. The Aftertouch is also not the best, it's sort of a digital press/no press, instead of being able to really adjust the value of the parameter. That's supposed to be much better in the Arturia and NI keyboards, for example.

[Stokely]

Keep in mind that most synths work well as controllers. I'm currently using the Kurzweil pc361 that I bought for playing with my band. It should be said that I only use the mod and pitch wheels (and keys). I have a little Korg nanokontrol unit if I want to get fancy with more sliders/buttons/etc. My feeling is: get something that feels good first of all. The pc361's keys have aftertouch and (IMO) are better than ANY midi controller I've ever tried. Same keybed as my old Virus, a Fatar tp9 action iirc. My old Motif classic also had very nice keys. These are all "flagship" synths that, when new, run 2500 bucks or so...and they get the nicest actions. I buy used from guitar center, you can get great deals if you are patient, and most importantly you have 30 days to make sure it works well for you, and if not you return locally (don't have to ship). Beats the crap out of meeting some dude in a parking lot with a wad of cash in your pocket lol!

You might be able to pick up a used older keyboard that feels at least as good as the midi controllers out there...granted they may not have the extra sliders that are simpler to map in software. But again there are non-key controllers you can get for that.

Just food for thought.

Also, as someone who has owned a few Rolands through the years--that pitch stick sucks (for me). Specifically, the modulation has a very short throw and it snaps back when you let go of it. That can be useful live but I wouldn't want that for a home controller.

[Teksonik]

I have owned an Akai MPK261 for a few years and love it. Great action (to me), lots of controller options and the Human Interface Device capabilities make it mesh really well with DAWs that don't have custom key bindings. It's also built like a tank on par with any dedicated hardware synth I've ever owned.

I had a first gen Arturia Keylab and the Pitch Bend wheel broke the first (and only) time I used it. Back it went for a refund and it's unlikely I'll ever buy Arturia hardware again.

[stoersignal]

if you are interested in a doepfer lmk4+, i would have one to sell

[NothanUmber]

If you are not a keyboard player, perhaps the smaller (less expensive, quite portable) Linnstrument might be worth a thought?
Also has a specific mode for non-MPE capable synths (like Zebra 2).
Most intuitive modulation ever - finger left/right is pitch bending, pressure is e.g. (poly) aftertouch, up, down e.g. the modulation CC 1. (In "compatibility mode" all midi events are sent on channel 1 and the xyz modulations are controlled via the finger that last touched the surface - imho quite intuitive).

And is fully in it's element with most other u-he synths that support voice-per-channel - there each finger can modulate xyz for an individual voice. (Zebra 3 is said to be also in that league).

[fladd]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. Doepfer and Linnstrument are in a different price range than I am looking at though
Reviews on Arturia seem to vary a lot. NI, I don't know, they seem to be tailor made for their software which I have no interest in. The Akai could be an option I guess. I might drop by Musicstore tomorrow to check out all the options.

Still, if someone has experience with either of the keyboards I mentioned above, let me know.

P.S.: The roland stick seems to be very polarising

[NothanUmber]

Sensel Morph might also be a cheaper option - with the piano or a self-printed grid overlay (have some layouts with presets uploaded).
Can be nice for expressive leads. For two hands it's imho a little small. (Then you need 2+ which should be out of your range again). If you are after polyphonic music with fast runs etc. and willing to learn to play keyboard then a normal keyboard is probably better. (There are ways to add more expression options to an existing keyboard - e.g. TouchKeys which is a material that is sticked to the keys for x/y sensing or Neova which is a ring with motion sensors included - all also not cheap though).

The E-mu X board was a simple, cheap and reliable master keyboard with good keys that came from 25 to 61 keys. Still have one since quite some time, everything still ok. Not officially on sale anymore, but sometimes to be found on garage sales etc. If all you want is "something that speaks MIDI with 25-61 keys" then going through a flea market can be an idea - good stuff can often be gotten for a few dollars / euros.

[fladd]

So, have been to the music store in cologne yesterday to test some keyboards, and what can I say, they are all not that great I didn't actually use the keyboards since most weren't connected, but I could check build quality and how the keys feel. They did not have the Samson, so could not test that, but they did have the 37 key version of the Roland. I was not too impressed with it. The Akai was also not that great, seemed just like a slightly better version of the Maudio Code 61. They even have the exact same mod and pitch wheels, which makes sense since they are basically from the same company.

The more expensive controllers seemed better. Most noticeable the Arturia Keylab MK2, the NI Kontrol A61 and the Novation SL MK3.

The NI felt good. I was a bit confused about aftertouch. It's not supposed to have it, yet I could clearly feel the keys bending after an initial resistance. I'm also not sure how well it will work with non NI software, which I don't use, and whether it is class compliant and could also be used under Linux.

The Arturia seemed very nicely built, looked great, keys were good. Opposite to the NI though, while this one should have aftertouch, there was no additional travel after pressing down the key. Again this confused me. There have also been lots of negative reports for the MK1 Labkey, so I'm not sure whether this new line had improved quality control. It's also tightly coiled to their soft synths, so again I'm not sure how well it plays with other software and potentially Linux.

And then there was the Novation. This is an interesting one. Comes with the same sequencer that is on my Circuit. Keys felt nice, and it had this light guide thing going on like the NI. But it's very expensive.

So yeah, I'm not sure if I'm any wiser now
If anyone has some more input on the questions that arouse about these keyboards ( aftertouch, class compliance, etc.), let me know!

[teilo]

The NI felt good. I was a bit confused about aftertouch. It's not supposed to have it, yet I could clearly feel the keys bending after an initial resistance. I'm also not sure how well it will work with non NI software, which I don't use, and whether it is class compliant and could also be used under Linux.

The Arturia seemed very nicely built, looked great, keys were good. Opposite to the NI though, while this one should have aftertouch, there was no additional travel after pressing down the key. Again this confused me. There have also been lots of negative reports for the MK1 Labkey, so I'm not sure whether this new line had improved quality control. It's also tightly coiled to their soft synths, so again I'm not sure how well it plays with other software and potentially Linux.

Aftertouch is not about key travel. It's about reading the pressure applied to the keys. The DX7, for example, has aftertouch, but almost no perceivable key travel when using it.

FYI — I use the DX7 for my main MIDI keyboard (with a velocity correction curve to get full range), along with an Akai MPD232 for everything else. I rebuilt the DX7, replacing the upstop felt, and it's fantastic.

[aMUSEd]

The NI felt good. I was a bit confused about aftertouch. It's not supposed to have it, yet I could clearly feel the keys bending after an initial resistance. I'm also not sure how well it will work with non NI software, which I don't use, and whether it is class compliant and could also be used under Linux.

The A Series doesn't have aftertouch, the S Series does (and is much better, I dislike the tiny screen on the A series and aftertouch is essential for me). The advantage of the NI keyboards is they do have mappings for many u-he synths, some more recent u-he synths are already NKS certified and can even export to NKS themselves (which is great for third party content), but even the ones that are not (yet) all have user community created NKS mappings and in many cases factory presets are converted as well to NKS (check out the NKS User Library in my sig).

[fladd]

Thanks for the clarifications. I have read somewhere that the NI keyboards are not class compliant and that you always need to run their software in order to use them. I can hardly believe that this is true, but if it is, they are not an option for me.

[EvilDragon]

While there is a driver install for NI's keyboards, you don't need to always run their software to use them - they do have a MIDI controller mode. However if you want to use NKS as it's intended, then yes, you would need to use Komplete Kontrol software (runs as a plugin as well).

[fladd]

Needed driver install is generally fine as long as one is available for Linux, too. Same for the NI software.