Roland Cloud

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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zerocrossing
KVRAF
9394 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area

Post Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:07 pm

Caroozo wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:03 am
II'm afraid about one thing - even if I own one plugin per year, I still need Internet connection to authorize them once a week.
That’s my one big beef with the whole Roland Cloud thing. I feel like every damn time I load up one of their plugins it asks me for a password. It’s really annoying. I’m hooked up to the internet and it’s already checking for updates. It can’t tell that I’m a customer in good standing?
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
6384 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: Roland Cloud

Post Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:10 pm

I've never had it ask me for a password over a few weeks since I enrolled. Is it because you're offline a lot?
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit. Once I have something clever, I will certainly fill it in.

electro
KVRAF
4420 posts since 6 May, 2002

Re: Roland Cloud

Post Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:29 pm

Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:10 pm
I've never had it ask me for a password over a few weeks since I enrolled. Is it because you're offline a lot?
the ugly intrusive consequences of tolerating DRM
Intel Core2 Quad CPU + 4 GIG RAM

User avatar
Aloysius
KVRAF
22989 posts since 11 Aug, 2008 from a computer

Re: Roland Cloud

Post Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:42 pm

Every cloud has a silver lining.
Never buy something you don't want just because it's a bargain.

Caroozo
KVRist
59 posts since 9 Mar, 2012

Re: Roland Cloud

Post Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:44 am

rezoneight wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:38 pm
Caroozo wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:22 am

Roland divided soft-synths to AIRA series and Roland Cloud. There's NO hardware solution for the plugins on Roland Cloud - maybe expect D05.
Not quite true. System-8 can do it for the cloud versions of the original plugouts they offered separately (like SH-02, Promars, etc)
Yeah, I mean Plug-Outs are compatible with System-8, but the rest is not. And THAT rest is very interesting and not so much demanding (CPU-wise). If it worked for D05, it will work for the rest.

Caroozo
KVRist
59 posts since 9 Mar, 2012

Re: Roland Cloud

Post Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:15 am

zerocrossing wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:07 pm
Caroozo wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:03 am
II'm afraid about one thing - even if I own one plugin per year, I still need Internet connection to authorize them once a week.
That’s my one big beef with the whole Roland Cloud thing. I feel like every damn time I load up one of their plugins it asks me for a password. It’s really annoying. I’m hooked up to the internet and it’s already checking for updates. It can’t tell that I’m a customer in good standing?
Yes, it is indeed. In the world of computer games, there are DRM-based (Steam, Denuvo) and DRM-free (GOG), the second being very popular - people are willing to pay for it, devs agree to sell them through this platform. But there's a mechanism in this, which (I hope) will work for Roland.

When the game is published, sales' peak is estimated between 3-6 months - it's very similiar to movies' box office income. There's a period when the producers get the most attention for their product and the money is flowing like there's no tomorrow. But when the market is saturated (or the product don't sell so well), there's a time the product/games goes for sale. Some more bucks in the pocket. But at the end, the incomes are smaller and smaller.

As for DRM-based games, some of the devs remove the protection system (Denuvo being No1). Some don't. As many of You know, Denuvo is very hard on CPU. There's no secret the games get cracked - sometimes after months or years, sometimes after several days. I don't want to talk about piracy, but it's very well known-fact that cracked versions ommit the protection, and games are BETTER than with protection (in some cases). I understand very well devs/publishers - they want to earn money for their product at first - and that's ok. But when the product is on the market for the very long time, there's a time to remove the "shackles" - at least to the point where protections don't have an impact on the performance. It's very good example.

As for movie market - cinema->VOD->DVD/BR->TV. The lifespan of GOOD movie is about 6-12 months, a crap one (although very hyped :? ) 1-3 months. It's not a secret that many productions nowadays aren't really worth the money - especially overhyped movies or games without demo. The same is for plugins - some devs don't offer any, some implement noise or no sound after certain interval of time, some - as immortal WinRar - give you virtually unlimited access to the funcionality AND are very good priced (I'm looking on You, Cockos :wink: ).

Roland was giving one month free - it was very good move, as many people wouldn't give it a try if they'll get limited experience or was forced to pay for something. We don't want to pay for anything we can't own - that's a fact. But we are used to renting the flat, paying for Internet access/TV/Netflix and so - and for reasonable price, it's ok. But when You discover that there IS a silver lining even after You "own" the plugin, one wonders if Roland is planning to "remove" this DRM from their software, or at least give the hardware platform for his plugins.

I have smaller, 2-core notebook with my lighter plugins installed on them, which is penamently offline (configured just for gigs). I'm very angry that I need to connect it just for Roland Cloud, as D50 is essential in my setup - I choose this plugin to own at the first place, but still I'm treated like... well, potential hacker or something? I like to play games from time to time and I like very much GOG, as they give You access to DRM-free installers of the games. No codes, no Denuvo. As I use Steam, it's quite good by checking the games just ONCE - and then You can play offline as long as You want, without the need to check licence every week or so. It's quite handy when working on different machines - some of them being offline for purpose ;-).

So the bottom line is - Roland HAS to remove that stupid 7-day licence-checking loop OR has to give the users hardware platform to use plugins without computer. From the perspective of professional, live oriented player it's a no-go in current state. I'd say more - the Roland Cloud is producer-oriented solution. For the musicians like me, SYSTEM-8 and Plug-Outs are great, but we need ALL of the plugins (except TERA-based) with the ability to load them to hardware. Or to remove licence check. Heck, I even agree to use USB stick or something. If it works for Steam and other services, it should work for Roland Cloud.

User avatar
beely
KVRAF
1656 posts since 6 Jul, 2013

Re: Roland Cloud

Post Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:24 am

zerocrossing wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:07 pm
That’s my one big beef with the whole Roland Cloud thing. I feel like every damn time I load up one of their plugins it asks me for a password. It’s really annoying. I’m hooked up to the internet and it’s already checking for updates. It can’t tell that I’m a customer in good standing?
It regularly needs to check that you have an active subscription - otherwise, you'd terminate your subscription and the plugins would never know, and keep working.

So it's basically saying "Can I keep working? Yes..? Cool. I'll work for now, and check again next month..."

User avatar
beely
KVRAF
1656 posts since 6 Jul, 2013

Re: Roland Cloud

Post Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:29 am

Caroozo wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:44 am
Yeah, I mean Plug-Outs are compatible with System-8, but the rest is not. And THAT rest is very interesting and not so much demanding (CPU-wise). If it worked for D05, it will work for the rest.
What is happening is that the System 1/Plugout concept was designed and built with the analog modelling synths in mind. This means, there is no memory or facility to transfer sample content, so all the "digital" plugouts that require sample ROM, like the D50, JV10180 etc won't work, because the system was designed before they were a thing. Not only that, but the control surface was designed as an analog-style layout, not the PCM partial/layer type layout the digital synths used.

It's not Roland arbitrarily saying "we don't want you to use these plugouts on the System hardware", it's simply that the hardware doesn't support it from a technical or design standpoint.

It may be they are working on the next round of "System" hardware that can support samples etc, and has a layout more suitable for the newer "digital" plugins, perhaps, or maybe not, maybe the "System" plugout thing was always designed for the analog modelling synths thing, and the rompler plugouts weren't planned or envisaged at the time.

I'm still happy we got the D50/JV plugs though - better that than Roland saying "The System hardware we made can't support romplers, so we won't bother developing them at all..."

Caroozo
KVRist
59 posts since 9 Mar, 2012

Re: Roland Cloud

Post Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:41 am

beely wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:24 am
zerocrossing wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:07 pm
That’s my one big beef with the whole Roland Cloud thing. I feel like every damn time I load up one of their plugins it asks me for a password. It’s really annoying. I’m hooked up to the internet and it’s already checking for updates. It can’t tell that I’m a customer in good standing?
It regularly needs to check that you have an active subscription - otherwise, you'd terminate your subscription and the plugins would never know, and keep working.

So it's basically saying "Can I keep working? Yes..? Cool. I'll work for now, and check again next month..."
Yeah, you're right. But what about the plugins I already own? They should remove this mechanism - one-time check and You're good to go.

User avatar
beely
KVRAF
1656 posts since 6 Jul, 2013

Re: Roland Cloud

Post Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:45 am

Caroozo wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:41 am
But what about the plugins I already own? They should remove this mechanism - one-time check and You're good to go.
For plugins that Roland has given you a permanent authorisation for, the procedure is the same - the plugin does an online check to see whether it is able to run. But for those plugins, the authorisation server will always return "Yes", even if you don't have an active paid subscription. It still needs to check periodically, as that's how the auth system works, and you still need your account, which has a record of your permanent licenses.

Any thing else would require Roland to develop and roll out a completely new copy protection method, just to cater for these "permanent" licenses. They might do that in time perhaps, but it's not likely imo to happen any time soon.

chk071
KVRAF
18895 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Roland Cloud

Post Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:54 am

Aloysius wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:42 pm
Every cloud has a silver lining.
Really? I thought DRM was bad by default, and everything had to be free.

Caroozo
KVRist
59 posts since 9 Mar, 2012

Re: Roland Cloud

Post Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:01 am

beely wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:29 am
Caroozo wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:44 am
Yeah, I mean Plug-Outs are compatible with System-8, but the rest is not. And THAT rest is very interesting and not so much demanding (CPU-wise). If it worked for D05, it will work for the rest.
What is happening is that the System 1/Plugout concept was designed and built with the analog modelling synths in mind. This means, there is no memory or facility to transfer sample content, so all the "digital" plugouts that require sample ROM, like the D50, JV10180 etc won't work, because the system was designed before they were a thing. Not only that, but the control surface was designed as an analog-style layout, not the PCM partial/layer type layout the digital synths used.

It's not Roland arbitrarily saying "we don't want you to use these plugouts on the System hardware", it's simply that the hardware doesn't support it from a technical or design standpoint.

It may be they are working on the next round of "System" hardware that can support samples etc, and has a layout more suitable for the newer "digital" plugins, perhaps, or maybe not, maybe the "System" plugout thing was always designed for the analog modelling synths thing, and the rompler plugouts weren't planned or envisaged at the time.

I'm still happy we got the D50/JV plugs though - better that than Roland saying "The System hardware we made can't support romplers, so we won't bother developing them at all..."
I think the whole System is just DSP or FPGA, so it can "be" anything. There's no problem with samples, as for D50 there are whole 1MB of samples and romplayers are just easier to emulate. As D50 has LA synthesis, JV is "pure" romplayer (okay, it has LAS synthesis, but this is the same as AWM/AWM2, Korg's EDS etc). They already made D05, so there's no problem at all to build new platform for the rest of the plugins (as Arturia Origin for example). You're right about controls and concept after it, but I don't want for SYSTEM to being the jack of all trades - rather the hardware platform for the entire Roland Cloud.

It's ok in studio, but for live it's a bit annoying. As for the SYSTEM concept - Roland long before developed "virtual" D50 as expansion for V-Synth, System was next, then Roland Cloud, then D05. It's natural evolution that "hardware layer" for the rest of the plugins should be the next step. Roland earn money twice - by subscription and by buying hardware. There are many people who will be happy to throw a grand or two - just to have all those synths in one device.

It's not that I cannot buy myself (again!) D50 or JV1080 with SRX cards. I'm after sound and playing/making music, when I get the right "solution" to achieve it, I'll gladly pay the price ONCE and have it forever and do with it what I want. Even now it's a nice thing to connect my Roland SC-155 through MIDI to play some DOS-based games to hear the music it was meant to be played (even when I have Edirol Sound Canvas plugin) or to play good old T3EX in person. I have Korg Legacy Collection for a very long time and it served me well without the problems - once set, it just works.

Maybe the problem is with the corporations being greedy - maybe it's like Steam. You don't own the games - You RENT them. GOG let You download them, burn on DVD and use it as You wish. As for Roland Cloud - even if I "own" plugin as the year of subscription passes, I cannot go away from the ecosystem - they have to check me every week (for what?). Is it ok? I think not. So I want the option to "escape" from it - be it hardware solution or pernament one-time authentication. It's that simple.

Funkybot's Evil Twin
KVRAF
6048 posts since 16 Aug, 2006

Re: Roland Cloud

Post Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:07 am

Can't they just store the password and check behind the scenes? They should only ask for a password it it changes.

User avatar
Aloysius
KVRAF
22989 posts since 11 Aug, 2008 from a computer

Re: Roland Cloud

Post Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:16 am

chk071 wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:54 am
Aloysius wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:42 pm
Every cloud has a silver lining.
Really? I thought DRM was bad by default, and everything had to be free.
If they didn't use the cloud, I'd purchase all their plug-ins and would be in massive debt, so I guess there's that.
Never buy something you don't want just because it's a bargain.

Caroozo
KVRist
59 posts since 9 Mar, 2012

Re: Roland Cloud

Post Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:45 am

Aloysius wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:16 am
chk071 wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:54 am
Aloysius wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:42 pm
Every cloud has a silver lining.
Really? I thought DRM was bad by default, and everything had to be free.
If they didn't use the cloud, I'd purchase all their plug-ins and would be in massive debt, so I guess there's that.
I hope that at certain point one can buy entire collection of "classic" recreation as a part of software layer to hardware solution. So for example Roland make "LEGACY" or "CLASSIC" series synth/host instruments similiar to SYSTEM (big one/small one/rack version - as showed Behringer DeepMind 12/6/12D there's a market for several versions). Korg already has custom-programmed OSC (through API) for his Prologue series, so it's natural evolution that software (sometimes superior to hardware nowadays) is going to be the new hardware. Then, hardware let us load to "slots" certain amount of plugins and switch between them (or layer them - why not? Kronos is an expensive, dual-core Atom-based computer anyway :)). Those, who own plugins through subscription in Roland Cloud, can load them as "purchased", as the others should buy them separately. I think 150-200$ should be ok, as having year-long subscribtion costs 240$ - it's more, sure, but You used all the plugins from the Cloud, so there's nothing wrong somebody pays a good chunk of it just to have one plugin.

Plugins should be buyable as "packs" - the more You buy, the more discount You get. I think Roland at some point prefer to sell gear AND licences for plugins for several grands, rather than count on endless wave of subscribers. Some of them (like me), WILL use it to the point I'll get everything I need - then bye. So Roland should be loyal to those subscribers, yet give the ability to buy every plugin at once. Maybe some of them should be "exclusive" to Roland Cloud users - or maybe some discounts when buying annual subscription? It WILL be very successful IF Roland keeps to develop plugins/SRX cards in the future.

I once used lovely-sounding Use-Audio Plugiator. It used Creamware technology (ASB) - some of the best Prophet5 or MiniMoog emulations even to this day. Based on DSP, they were able to load up to 8 slots of instruments - one of them - Lightwave if memory serves well - was wavetable-based. The plugins have keys unique to serial number of the device - once loaded, they were there for ever. So I know it can be done - and we all know hardware protection is better than software protection. As for Plugiator - for the starters it offered 3 plugins (Minimax, Lightwave, B4000 and Vocoder), but for a fee (200$ or so) they gave excellent Pro12, Prodyssey and Use-audio exclusive FMagia and Drum'n'bass. It has major problem with MIDI Clock, but the sound was first-class. I once owned Minimax ASB 12, the sound was the same. It was all DSP (pretty outdated). So to emulate JV1080, D50 and the likes it's nothing short from the basic FPGA/DSP or even x86 CPU with custom-made OS (like KORG did with Kronos).

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