Best DAW for Windows that supports MPE.

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pdxindy
KVRAF
14951 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:37 am

So does it provide some means of recording the midi output of a Rise? Or you can only record to audio?

Terrafractyl
KVRist
352 posts since 15 Nov, 2005 from Melbourne Australia

Re: Best DAW for Windows that supports MPE.

Post Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:59 am

Yeah same as reaktor you can build your own. They added some new objects to Max4Live, mpeconfig mpeparse and polymidiin.
Still, its hardly built into the DAW workflow like in cubase/Logic.
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pdxindy
KVRAF
14951 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Best DAW for Windows that supports MPE.

Post Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:06 pm

Terrafractyl wrote:Yeah same as reaktor you can build your own. They added some new objects to Max4Live, mpeconfig mpeparse and polymidiin.
Still, its hardly built into the DAW workflow like in cubase/Logic.
At least it's something... not enough to consider returning to Live (for me)...

pottering
KVRian
679 posts since 14 Dec, 2014

Re: Best DAW for Windows that supports MPE.

Post Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:09 pm

The workaround on Roli's site (https://support.roli.com/article/using- ... eton-live/) is a bit easier with Live 10, as one can save such a setup as a Group then load that group straight from a template project now. Also the multi-clip editing makes it a bit easier to edit the MIDI in those multiple tracks.

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rod_zero
KVRAF
2992 posts since 28 Jan, 2011 from MEXICO

Re: Best DAW for Windows that supports MPE.

Post Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:53 pm

Bitwig because is quite similar to live and the learning curve would be minimal.
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Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
6382 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: Best DAW for Windows that supports MPE.

Post Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:32 pm

zerocrossing wrote:
Echoes in the Attic wrote:Bitwig is decent - works perfectly with it's own synths and equator and strobe, also with falcon in polyphonic mode. It has problems with multi-channel midi because, well it doesn't do that. I still use it with Omnisphere with copied instruments over the different parts, but you should make each copy mono in that case so that it cuts off previous notes on that channel in case of multiple notes getting sent over the same channel (which happens if notes don't overlap since bitwig rotates channels on the fly and doesn't store the channel received). And bitwig claims to use VST3 note expression but doesn't in any useful way. Steinberg don't know what they are talking about.

Cubase seems like it works well because of Note expression and multi-channel midi, which you can convert MPE messages coming in to note expression. And it saves the midi channel received, unlike bitwig.
By all accounts Reaper seems to work well with MPE/multi-channel midi as well and stores the midi channel info.

What about Tracktion Waveform? Comes with Roli products so it might work well. I was just about to email Roli to figure out how to get Waveform as I have a seaboard block but haven't seen a download for it.
Hm. Bitwig not dealing with multi-channel MIDI is a bit of a bummer.

I may be forced into Reaper for the sole reason that because of Ableton’s upgrade policy from 9 to 10, my 9 license is about as appealing as a piece of poop and I don’t think I can scare up the funds for an outright buy of one of the more expensive DAWs. Bitwig 8 Track has proven to be pretty useless due to it’s pretty paltry feature set, but at least it shows me that I can continue to work in more or less the same way that I have been.

Not being able to easily use Omnisphere is a bit of a bummer, but I’ve kind of decided that the Rise is really just married to MPE compatible software and hardware. It’s not a big heartache. Between the software that’s available now, my Micromonsta (now just getting MPE support. Haven’t tried it yet) and maybe adding a Modor NF-1M this Christmas, that should give me a lot to work with. I do still find that for a lot of sounds, I still gravitate to using a standard MIDI controller anyway because the Rise’s inability to do real aftertouch makes it awkward. I wish Roli Control would let you filter out pressure unti after a specified threshold.
It's not bad with Omnisphere but there are some things to be aware of. First of all Bitwig only expects 48 note bend up/down for it's per note pitch editing/recording. Something like Omnisphere where the max is 24 means that you have to use the mod matrix and assign pitch bend to oscillator pitch. That works fine to give it 48 note bend (at it's default assignment actually), but then of course you either need to assign this for A and B parts for every preset, or you need to lock the whole modulation page. Also as I mentioned if you a're doing a lot of expression with a sound that has a release long enough that it could overlap another note when the midi doesn't actually overlap, you risk applying expression to both notes on the channel because bitwig used the same channel since the notes didn't overlap in terms of midi. So best to set individual copies to mono for that reason. You still get polyphony, but some notes would cut off previous ones on the same channel. It's still really useful though and in fact it's really cool because you can modulate effects independently for each voice, so every effect becomes per voice, which is really unique. And at least Omnisphere does have the user cc to assign cc74 to so you can use all the modulators. Unfortunately it doesn't have scaling of modulation sources so you couldn't for example curve the pressure source to come in later in the press, which can be useful, like you can with Equator, Strobe or Falcon.

There's also one big benefit of Bitwig with MPE, which is for mono sounds. Even though MPE is for polyphonic modulation, the truth, a lot of times you use mono sounds with it - synth leads, wind, brass, lead guitar etc. Bitwig's modulation system at least allows you to use any instrument with MPE controls easily because of the expression modulators, which is way better than assigning midi learn, because you can set the modulation range. Of course you still need 48 note bend if you want to edit with the per pitch, which is useful because the bends actually get drawn to the notes you want. But otherwise you can still have the bends from an MPE device get converted to normal pitch bend. This is harder to edit but it's still ok.

So for me I decided to stay with Bitwig because I've got good full easy MPE with Equator and Falcon, almost full MPE with Omnisphere (and with side benefits). And MPE type mono stuff everywhere. I was close to getting somethi gelse like a version of cubase because I love Halion so much but it stinks with bitwig because although you have the per voice pitch bend, there is absolutely no way to have polyphonic pressure or timbre, which is ridiculous. Steinberg synths don't have polyphonic aftertouch, only channel pressure (I guess because they don't need it with note expression) and no polyphonic midi sources. Steinberg don't know what I'm talking about when I ask them questions about this. Bitwig don't understand what I'm talking about when I tell them the problems with their VST3 implementation.
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marmess
KVRist
30 posts since 24 May, 2012

Re: Best DAW for Windows that supports MPE.

Post Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:55 pm

pottering wrote:The workaround on Roli's site (https://support.roli.com/article/using- ... eton-live/) is a bit easier with Live 10, as one can save such a setup as a Group then load that group straight from a template project now. Also the multi-clip editing makes it a bit easier to edit the MIDI in those multiple tracks.
It was already possible with Live 9 to save those tracks in a group to create presets.
Switching for one instrument to another isn't so quick and fluid though.
And sometimes the input midi driver can't get lost is you use a second MPE controller for instance. Not really convenient!

marmess
KVRist
30 posts since 24 May, 2012

Re: Best DAW for Windows that supports MPE.

Post Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:01 pm

pdxindy wrote:
VariKusBrainZ wrote:
BobDog wrote:
VariKusBrainZ wrote:Why not try Ableton and M4L, the links I posted were a hint ;)
Could you please tell us how we would use that to control plugins?
M4L can load plugins
and that is useful for MPE how?
It's not that simple, in Ableton, the plugin will just received one midi channel per track. So with max or not max, you will need more than track to use multiples channels.

pottering
KVRian
679 posts since 14 Dec, 2014

Re: Best DAW for Windows that supports MPE.

Post Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:44 pm

marmess wrote:
pottering wrote:The workaround on Roli's site (https://support.roli.com/article/using- ... eton-live/) is a bit easier with Live 10, as one can save such a setup as a Group then load that group straight from a template project now. Also the multi-clip editing makes it a bit easier to edit the MIDI in those multiple tracks.
It was already possible with Live 9 to save those tracks in a group to create presets.
Switching for one instrument to another isn't so quick and fluid though.
And sometimes the input midi driver can't get lost is you use a second MPE controller for instance. Not really convenient!
You can save, but when you browse the project in 9's browser you only see the individual tracks. Only way to get a group into an existing project is dragging the project to one of the Track Title Bars and importing the whole project.

You can always save multiple "templates" (multiple groups) each with a different instrument, then recall those.

Of course, it is extra work and just a workaround (I never said it was as fluid as other DAWs), but at least the option is there, and it is a bit easier to implement in 10.

(Looking at that Roli page again, not really sure, but maybe just selecting the 16 MIDI channels in each track is enough, it may not be needed to select a specific controller, you can just leave the 16 pseudo-MPE tracks set to "All Ins", and not need to do anything to switch controllers (besides arming and such). Could save one step.)

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pdxindy
KVRAF
14951 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Best DAW for Windows that supports MPE.

Post Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:17 pm

It 's not like a once in a while thing. All that is way too much hassle if you are going to use a Rise or Linnstrument as your main controller.

Much better just to use a DAW that supports MPE...

weasel79
KVRer
17 posts since 7 Apr, 2006

Re: Best DAW for Windows that supports MPE.

Post Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:31 pm

thanks varikus this was great info, i was gonna geat a small seaboard and was wondering how put it to use in ableton... is there ny new deevlopement for it? couldn't really find any projects or plugins in m4l yet. since max can load vst plugins there should be a way to just write a little shell host in m4l that translates all the poly seaboard data and passes it on/maps it to the nested VST right?

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pdxindy
KVRAF
14951 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Best DAW for Windows that supports MPE.

Post Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:46 pm

weasel79 wrote:thanks varikus this was great info, i was gonna geat a small seaboard and was wondering how put it to use in ableton... is there ny new deevlopement for it? couldn't really find any projects or plugins in m4l yet. since max can load vst plugins there should be a way to just write a little shell host in m4l that translates all the poly seaboard data and passes it on/maps it to the nested VST right?
Live itself doesn't support that... you have to use a separate instance with the same preset and on a different track for each voice...

well... that is if you want to record midi... I guess that M4L could do that if you want to record straight to audio

pottering
KVRian
679 posts since 14 Dec, 2014

Re: Best DAW for Windows that supports MPE.

Post Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:23 pm

weasel79 wrote:thanks varikus this was great info, i was gonna geat a small seaboard and was wondering how put it to use in ableton... is there ny new deevlopement for it? couldn't really find any projects or plugins in m4l yet. since max can load vst plugins there should be a way to just write a little shell host in m4l that translates all the poly seaboard data and passes it on/maps it to the nested VST right?
Not really "New!", but maybe you haven't seen it yet:

https://github.com/juhot/MPE_Util

"MPE_Util
MIDI Remote Script ("Control Surface") for Ableton Live 9/10, adding MPE-utilities such as:
- Automated creation and setup of channel tracks for MPE MIDI input device
- MPE channel track properties (e.g. arm and firing of clips) follow input of their instrument track"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg0kUVC ... e=youtu.be

lastmessiah
KVRist
65 posts since 23 Aug, 2017

Re: Best DAW for Windows that supports MPE.

Post Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:04 am

Bitwig has full MIDI channel support now with the latest beta and is perfect for MPE. Tracktion Waveform 9 is another solid choice.

Ou_Tis
KVRist
239 posts since 10 Jul, 2018

Re: Best DAW for Windows that supports MPE.

Post Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:20 pm

I've found that 3rd party plugin developers offer support for Cubase but not Bitwig or Waveform. They don't test with them and tech support tells me they won't even try to solve issues in Bitwig or Waveform.

Bitwig's gui is IMO counterintuitive and inefficient and I keep finding myself sticking with Waveform. But a lot of 3rd party plugins are buggy in Waveform.

(Also, IMO Bitwig's native organ and polysynth sound like crap, though it could just be that I haven't played around with the parameters enough and YMMV.)

How good is Cubase's HALion with the Seaboard [edit: hmm, I see a prior post in this thread seems to imply that Press, Slide and Lift can't be used with Halion... yikes!])? Is mixing in Cubase significantly better than in Bitwig? It seems like I should switch to Cubase but I'm not certain it's worth it....

All my plugins do currently seem to work in Bitwig; maybe mixing will become more efficient once I get used to it....

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