KVR Audio

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:43 pm

Etienne1973 wrote: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:41 pm
fmr wrote: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:28 pmPropellerhead never said they had non-linearities in the Reason summing engine (nor does any other DAW, AFAIK).
Does the Harrison Mixbus DAW have non-linearities like Brainworx TMT?

Not that I'm aware. Brainworx TMT is "patent pending", which means noone else came up with something alike - that's why they asked to register the technology. AFAIK, all channels in Mixbus behave the exact same way, like in any other DAW.

EnochLight · Post by **EnochLight** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:56 pm

Reason's main mixer is functionally modelled after an SSL 9000K, but it adds absolutely no color to the sound unless you use its compressor (which is, as far as I know, modelled after the comp in an actual SSL9000K). I mean, no more color than is achieved when using its channel EQ, filters, etc.

And no, Reason doesn't have "a sound". That Gearslutz crap was from back in the day before Reason did audio recording and everyone was lambasting Reason's stock devices up to 5.0.

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:27 pm

chk071 wrote: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:03 pmAs far as i read, the SSL mixer indeed does some sound colouring.

Frankly, I was always wondering what "colouring" (audio) means. For example with EQ, I understand that the filters can have different curves, slopes or "efficiency" in how much they pass through / cut / boost, but how do we know one is transparent and other is colouring? Or with compressors, that can have different detection algorithms and then different reaction functions for attack, release, makeup gain, etc. Again, what makes one compressor transparent and other one colouring?

Etienne1973 · Post by **Etienne1973** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:35 pm

antic604 wrote: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:27 pmAgain, what makes one compressor transparent and other one colouring?

Distortion and phase mutations ?

sin night · Post by **sin night** » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:23 am

To my ears, it has a sound... I still have to make a null test on Reason 10 with a few audio tracks and nothing else; I think the last time I did it, it was with Reason 7. And it did not null (maybe because of the way it handles timestretch? I don’t know). I tried a few times to exclude an “operator issue” and none of the export did null with each other.
I have yet to repeat the test with Reason 10 (it’s very low on my priority), but I hear a certain colouration (less definition?) which isn’t there on other hosts like Cubase... I’m currently using Reason to sketch a new track and I can hear it sounds different...

IDK...

EnochLight · Post by **EnochLight** » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:04 pm

sin night wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:23 am To my ears, it has a sound... I still have to make a null test on Reason 10 with a few audio tracks and nothing else; I think the last time I did it, it was with Reason 7. And it did not null (maybe because of the way it handles timestretch? I don’t know). I tried a few times to exclude an “operator issue” and none of the export did null with each other.
I have yet to repeat the test with Reason 10 (it’s very low on my priority), but I hear a certain colouration (less definition?) which isn’t there on other hosts like Cubase... I’m currently using Reason to sketch a new track and I can hear it sounds different...

IDK...

You did your null test wrong. Reason has nulled in 6.0, 7.0, 8.0, 9.0, and 10.

NAD · Post by **NAD** » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:33 pm

sin night wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:23 amAnd it did not null (maybe because of the way it handles timestretch? I don’t know).

Yeah, different DAWs or even different versions of the same DAW won't necessarily be using the same timestretching algorithm and even if they do the settings may vary.

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:51 pm

NAD wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:33 pm
sin night wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:23 amAnd it did not null (maybe because of the way it handles timestretch? I don’t know).
Yeah, different DAWs or even different versions of the same DAW won't necessarily be using the same timestretching algorithm and even if they do the settings may vary.

A null test cannot be done after "time-stretching". It cannot be done after ANY processing. If you are trying to test the summing of a praticular DAW, the only thing you should do is summing, nothing else.

Of course each DAW (as well as each plug-in) processes the sound differently, and it would be absurd pretending that a time-stretched sound coming from a particular a DAW would null another time-stretched sound processed by another DAW.

kmonkey · Post by **kmonkey** » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:10 pm

sin night wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:23 am To my ears, it has a sound... I still have to make a null test on Reason 10 with a few audio tracks and nothing else; I think the last time I did it, it was with Reason 7. And it did not null (maybe because of the way it handles timestretch? I don’t know). I tried a few times to exclude an “operator issue” and none of the export did null with each other.
I have yet to repeat the test with Reason 10 (it’s very low on my priority), but I hear a certain colouration (less definition?) which isn’t there on other hosts like Cubase... I’m currently using Reason to sketch a new track and I can hear it sounds different...

Don't bother and waste time like i did. Reason perfectly null with Reaper, Ableton and FL Studio last time i tested. (i tested from version 5 or something and above to version 9)

If you haven't ended with complete null i would call most likely a PAN LAW error or something in the path.

Btw if stretching was involved then it was flawed null test right from the start and it's not the way you do these tests.

You can take my word and believe me or you can waste time like i did (sadly). It's up to you.

sin night · Post by **sin night** » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:44 pm

I didn't timestretch, but I wasn't able to null ("timestretch" was my blackbox explanation for something going on in the audio engine, given that Reason has a great realtime timestretch). And Reason settings were the default ones (I rarely use that daw, btw).
I guess I'll repeat the test again, it's probably a waste of time, but it's still worth doing it... Still, if I did something wrong, I wish I knew what it was, because I'm not a newbie at these things (and I really hate making mistakes), so probably it wasn't something trivial.

Grizzellda · Post by **Grizzellda** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:41 am

antic604 wrote: Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:47 pm And I was joking about closing the topic. Actually, go check my topic from 2 weeks back:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=518037

Heh heh...

and if so, if you really, really were joking, and not just saying that...

well please use emoticons! They might seem silly, but they help alot.

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:32 am

Grizzellda wrote: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:41 am
antic604 wrote: Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:47 pm And I was joking about closing the topic. Actually, go check my topic from 2 weeks back:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=518037
Heh heh...

and if so, if you really, really were joking, and not just saying that...

well please use emoticons! They might seem silly, but they help alot.

I have no power here, obviously I was joking

Every sensible person knows by now that all DAWs null (within reasonable margin of error, that's way below human ear's perception) and any colouration is introduced on purpose by native devices, including channes stips if they exist in given DAW. There's nothing really to discuss

Etienne1973 · Post by **Etienne1973** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:54 am

kmonkey · Post by **kmonkey** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:57 am

sin night wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:44 pm Still, if I did something wrong, I wish I knew what it was, because I'm not a newbie at these things (and I really hate making mistakes), so probably it wasn't something trivial.

Like i said (if you are that experienced you should now it by now) - PAN LAW between DAW apps is different. You have to make it equal. In some DAW's user can't edit PAN LAW and value is fixed (Reason for example) but some can (Reaper, Cubase etc). And in some apps PAN LAW is different then in another - BY DEFAULT upon initialization. You have to either match PAN LAW to be consistent across all DAW's or you have to compensate for it (or lack of it).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_law

Timestretching has nothing with doing proper test between DAWs. And Reason SSL does not color anything in any way (as long as we are speaking about DAW null test - not the actual channel processing which is not DAW sum or null test)

Elektronisch · Post by **Elektronisch** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:21 am

V0RT3X wrote: Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:14 pm I remember there being a debate back on Gearsluts about Reason having a "Sound" that made it sound less professional than other DAWs. I think it might have been about the Mixing engine and the fact you could only use the included (somewhat dated sounding) devices and the Rack plugins from the store.

Now that it has VST support does it still have a "sound" that is less professional sound. Would you be able to notice if you made a track in Reason 10?

I think you can get some pretty awesome results for contemporary "modern" sounding pop productions using Reason. Not sure I could say the same for complex soundtrack production.

I also know Reason has internal limitations with it's CV modulation system not being as high resolution as it could be. This could be problematic for electronic musicians wanting audio rate sounds with some of the factory devices etc.

Is version 10 buggy in 2019? I'm getting kind of tempted to buy it to play around with.

So does Propellerheads Reason still have a "Sound" to it in 2019?