MSoundFactory concept & template round #3

[dmbaer]

- dmbaer: ... I took a look on both the original and the edited version, and I must say I was 100% for the edited version, I was completely lost in the original. It's of course a matter of taste and how each person's brain is wired .

Just one more comment on this - not to belabor the point but because it really is relevant to MSF at this point in time.

The preset you found overly complex was actually quite logically structured and that structure could have been easily explained in a couple of paragraphs of help text. But we were never asked to supply that. I think this was the biggest issue I had overall with MTurboDelay - we had a fair number of unique/unusual presets for which there was no immediately obvious application, and there was no help text explaining how they should be used. Nor was there any control-level help. To me, this was a serious shortcoming. MTurboDelay was dropped in the user's laps with nothing more than a "here, you figure it out".

Now with MSF we have the same potential challenge. A regular synth (Predator, Dune, Zebra, etc.) is a single instrument that's pretty complex. But there's a manual.

With MSF instruments, these are not nearly as complex as a full-blown synth. But there will be many of them and each will be different from the others. And there will be no manual for MSF instruments. Many, of course, will be simple enough that their use will be obvious. But many will need some explanation both at the instrument level and at the control level.

The instrument-level explanation can be just a couple of sentences in some cases but there should be space for multiple paragraphs when necessary. Control level explanation will often be unneeded: Dry/Wet needs no explanation (although for consistency a help entry ought to be present, however succinct). But a continuous control labelled "Resonator B Level" or switch labelled "MTB Full On" surely better have a help entry. The coolest instruments in the world will be of little use if a lot of users cannot figure out how to use them.

If there's agreement that quality help is a goal, this is the time to set the standard. If it's not done from the start (and fully implemented in the template) it's realistically never going to happen.

OK, now I'll put my soapbox back in the closet.

[Touch The Universe]

Here are several examples of fairly good preset information. Three are from different u-he synths (Repro, Diva and Zebra). u-he seems to have a good handle on this. The fourth is from Synthmaster. Nice idea, but few of the sound developers pay any attention to this opportunity to make the users better appreciate their creations.

Uhe and Spectrasonics, Dune 3, etc all have a rather annoying method of inputing text. I have to press shift + spacebar in order to make space between words. When making hundreds of presets and inputting paragraphs of texts explaining the patch, it's super annoying. Please have input text normal

[Chandlerhimself]

chandler: Understood and there are some good points. However I think introducing a thing like "concept" would be very confusing for end users. So to answer your primary question - what is an instrument. Well, anything! That's the thing, you can do what you described, but you can also be much more specific. Sure, the supersaw can be much more than just a supersaw, but I don't see a problem in that. If you introduce some "concept", you could make various sounds with it, true, but it would force you to make it generalized enough. But what if you simply wanted a nice distorted bass arp? You don't want to spend time with stuff that could be related to leads only. And this stuff would also require more controls, hence more complex "concepts".
But now there are simply instruments (or sounds). So let's say I make a nice distorted bass arp. There's absolutely no reason, which you couldn't take this instrument and change it just a little bit to come up with something different! After all the internal modules may be able to change such a bass to something very different just by touching a few parameters. You may argue that it wouldn't be a new instrument, but I argue that it would . Because you simply cannot cover everything with one set of settings. And the fact that you can just take one instrument and transform it easily to something completely different is imho quite beautiful.
Of course, maybe we should then add a requirement, that if your instrument is based on some other instrument, you need to mention that in the device info.


Btw. I came to conclusion that the 3rd party licence conditions may be even easier, literally free for both the designer and the end user in fact. Makes sense? Who knows, but I think it could be really cool. More here:
https://www.meldaproduction.com/doc/MSoundFactory

Thank Vojtech, that makes things a little clearer. I'm still not 100% sure how things will go, but I feel like I'm arguing too much about this and perhaps it isn't important. If there isn't a restriction on making complicated/generalized stuff, that's enough for me. I was thinking of making some things that would be more like a Reaktor instrument that could make basses, leads, pads, etc and have tons of presets. As long as that is allowed its ok. Of course I have simple ideas too that are more in line with what you've described above.

I just read through the updated MSF docs and I really like the "Full GUI" flag. I was worried that some sound designers would be put off by the requirement that they have to develop a GUI, but with this they can choose what they want to do. Great idea. This might also be good for sounds that are simple and basic, but useful. For example a shaker or a tambourine sound. Nothing needs to be adjusted except maybe the amount to reverb. Having a 3 control GUI without all the global stuff might be good for stuff like that.

I also agree with dmbaer that there should be something on the presets that explains what the midi CCs do. I also think it would be good to have something explaining what the controls on the instruments do. It doesn't have to be in depth, just something like "Filter - controls the cutoff of the low pass filter". For normal controls like that its easy to understand, but if it has some strange label, nobody will know what the control does, so an explanation from the designer would be nice.

The licensing stuff seems really generous. Perhaps it will work to get more people to develop for MSF.

[dmbaer]

So, my email tells me MSF is finally ready for some prime-time instrument/preset development.

I am correct in assuming we should start by taking the Super Saw, clearing out the Generator tab and using that as the template for our efforts? I only just downloaded the new installer file and have yet to run it, so hopefully this isn't a stupid question.

[jmg8]

No, there is a new preset in the same folder as Super Saw. Cant remember the name of it now. But basically it already has the generator cleared for you.

[ZentralmassivSound]

I think ADSR controls should go into the template, too, since that is a feature that will often be used.

[MeldaProduction]

dmbaer: Yes, there will be potentially many of them, but that's the whole point about the standardization recommendations - to make them similar, so that using them is simple. With regular synths you need to know how the synth work to get even mediocre results. Here the hard job is done by sound designers and the knobs on the easy screen should be more like "listen and choose" kind of thing. Anyways check the update MSoundFactory info .

touch the universe: The text input is done in a popup, so it should work fine.

jmg8: Correct, the "Template" is the Template

ZentralmassivSound: ADSR may be useful, but there's no need to make it to the template, as sometimes it won't be useful and in every case it will work differently, most likely.

[elassi]

No, there is a new preset in the same folder as Super Saw. Cant remember the name of it now. But basically it already has the generator cleared for you.

Hmm, don't see a new preset, just the previous ones. *scratches head*

[jmg8]

Not in the instrument browser. It is in the normal presets browser.

[dmbaer]

jmg8: Correct, the "Template" is the Template

Actually, I believe the name is "Main template".

Sadly, there is no control-level help in evidence ... well, I tried.

[dmbaer]

Suggestion for Main Template template. It would be convenient to have a dummy placeholder control on a placeholder Generator tab added to the template. It's easier to delete the placeholder than to add a new one that gets a Generator tab started.

[MeldaProduction]

Do you think the control-level hel is needed? I mean these are not complex controls...

As for the "dummy" - what do you mean by that? There are empty MPs there.

[dmbaer]

Do you think the control-level hel is needed? I mean these are not complex controls...

OK, I've thought about this some more and mostly control-level help is not all that essential in most presets PROVIDED(!) there's plenty of room to provide instrument-level documentation.

I have not saved any instrument presets yet (I don't know how, to be honest) so I don't know what the possibilities are here and the Super Saw provides no enlightenment. For the typical preset, there will probably be a few off-the-beaten-track controls that need explanation, but a decent instrument-level help description could provide that information.

I do have one instrument in development that has quite a few controls that will need explaining. But even there, as long as there is sufficient space for instrument-level info, this could work.

If, on the other hand, only a scant bit of space is available for instrument-level help, I think we will have major problems making our presets comprehensible. So, I look forward to seeing what the story is here.

[dmbaer]

As for the "dummy" - what do you mean by that? There are empty MPs there.

Right now if you pull up the template and go into easy mode, there is no Generator tab at all, right? I simple am suggesting that one should be added along with one dummy control (to be deleted) to remind sound designers that this is the expected tab order. Not a big deal, but a small help for sound designers just starting to learn the ropes.

[MeldaProduction]

Ok got it. I'll add some help (though I personally don't feel the need) and add the dummy.