Status of NRPN (high resolution MIDI control)

[EvilDragon]

https://code.google.com/archive/p/pizmidi/downloads

You'll want the latest pizmidi download.

[DavidCarlyon]

https://code.google.com/archive/p/pizmidi/downloads

You'll want the latest pizmidi download.

Cheers buddy! Got the NRPN converter...will check it out now.

[evg]

Hi David,
if you use Reaper, and want to map from DSI HW synths to Diva/RePro, have a look at the Reaper MIDI plugin script that I presented here for the DSI OB6 viewtopic.php?f=31&t=519439&p=7301970&h ... t#p7301970
If you know some programming, you should be able to adapt it.
It offers NRPN to CC mapping and a lot of other features.
I assume DSI uses the same NRPN values across their range of synths, so you do not need to change everything.
And you can use Reapers JS MIDI Logger Plugin to see what is going on.
(Meanwhile, I added Hive as a target, and some non-u-he synths, see the links here: https://forum.sequential.com/index.php/ ... 327.0.html )
Best regards,
Edo

[DavidCarlyon]

Hi David,
if you use Reaper, and want to map from DSI HW synths to Diva/RePro, have a look at the Reaper MIDI plugin script that I presented here for the DSI OB6 viewtopic.php?f=31&t=519439&p=7301970&h ... t#p7301970
If you know some programming, you should be able to adapt it.
It offers NRPN to CC mapping and a lot of other features.
I assume DSI uses the same NRPN values across their range of synths, so you do not need to change everything.
And you can use Reapers JS MIDI Logger Plugin to see what is going on.
(Meanwhile, I added Hive as a target, and some non-u-he synths, see the links here: https://forum.sequential.com/index.php/ ... 327.0.html )
Best regards,
Edo

Hi there, thanks for your response. Thats very cool indeed!
I do not (yet) have any DSI instruments, but that does look great.

Have you seen realearn? Thats a plugin that allows me to map NRPN controls to basically anything inside Reaper.
I have for example, mapped my DeepMind12 to the Roland Juno!! Very cool.
And you can just save different layouts, re map with ease. It is very good actually.
So thats all great, but i need control going the other way!!

What i need is something that can control the synth. So that i can map the NRPN parameters to a reaper device (or some kind) and then automate the params of that device, which then controls the HW synth.
That way i would have plugin like conrtrol over HW synths.
I managed to do this in Ableton with the help of a M4L device, but have not succeeded in any other DAW!!

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

What i need is something that can control the synth. So that i can map the NRPN parameters to a reaper device (or some kind) and then automate the params of that device, which then controls the HW synth.
That way i would have plugin like conrtrol over HW synths.
I managed to do this in Ableton with the help of a M4L device, but have not succeeded in any other DAW!!

Can't you do that with Cubase's MIDI Devices? I'm not 100% sure on the NPRN piece, but I know for CC's at least you can map out your external hardware, create panels, and basically use that software interface for saving and sending patches to the hardware.

[DavidCarlyon]

What i need is something that can control the synth. So that i can map the NRPN parameters to a reaper device (or some kind) and then automate the params of that device, which then controls the HW synth.
That way i would have plugin like conrtrol over HW synths.
I managed to do this in Ableton with the help of a M4L device, but have not succeeded in any other DAW!!

Can't you do that with Cubase's MIDI Devices? I'm not 100% sure on the NPRN piece, but I know for CC's at least you can map out your external hardware, create panels, and basically use that software interface for saving and sending patches to the hardware.

That sounds cool. you can have that kind of control in reaper - allthough you cannot make panels - this is something i really want. It would be so nice to just create panels and map the controls to HW synths Via NRPN. I am amazed that there are (seemingly) no native solutions for this.
I will look into the cubase feature though, thanks

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

I only tried it briefly, and the process to map the hardware parameters and create panels was very clunky and slow, but it seemed to work. If you search YouTube for terms like "Mapping External Instruments in Cubase" (or Mapping Hardware Synths) you'll find some videos on the topic.

[pdxindy]

I am amazed that there are (seemingly) no native solutions for this.

NRPN's have some issues. First, forget about doing any editing. Also, because each block is 4 midi messages, timing is critical. The 4 must stay together and in the correct order. Any other midi being sent on the same channel can get in the middle of a block. So twisting two hardware knobs at the same time can get mixed up data.

[diaper@ky]

Or buy a Physis K4 and do this in real-time.
ZebraHZ and a Physis K4 are more fun than automating hardware.

Once you can close your eyes and visualize Zebra and the K4 on a mind bending schematic your brain creates you got the tiger by the tail.

[DavidCarlyon]

I am amazed that there are (seemingly) no native solutions for this.

NRPN's have some issues. First, forget about doing any editing. Also, because each block is 4 midi messages, timing is critical. The 4 must stay together and in the correct order. Any other midi being sent on the same channel can get in the middle of a block. So twisting two hardware knobs at the same time can get mixed up data.

So essentially, it is going to be impossible to do this on a single channel?
I suppose that only really makes NRPN useful for things like changing non continuous controls?

I am mostly just interested in having higher resolution control over key params (cutoff etc) to avoid stepping etc

[DavidCarlyon]

Or buy a Physis K4 and do this in real-time.
ZebraHZ and a Physis K4 are more fun than automating hardware.

Once you can close your eyes and visualize Zebra and the K4 on a mind bending schematic your brain creates you got the tiger by the tail.

That controller does look really damn nice. I have just been using Komplete Kontrol49mk2 - which of course is not the best controller in the world. BUT it does allow me to create as many templates as i want whilst being able to see the name of the parameter and an up to date readout right above the control.
I very rarely use it with the KK software though. I find it a bit cumbersome.

[evg]

NRPN's have some issues. First, forget about doing any editing. Also, because each block is 4 midi messages, timing is critical. The 4 must stay together and in the correct order. Any other midi being sent on the same channel can get in the middle of a block. So twisting two hardware knobs at the same time can get mixed up data.

I am mostly just interested in having higher resolution control over key params (cutoff etc) to avoid stepping etc

Two comments:

Regarding "twisting two knobs at the same time can get mixed data":
I just tested this with my setup: OB6 in NRPN mode, Reaper MIDI Mapper script that has a really simple algorithm to convert the NRPN to CC, and Hive. There is no problem when I turn three knobs at once. It translates correctly to three Hive knobs turning. I suppose it depends on the way the NRPN output is programmed in the OB6.

Regarding higher resolution control:
I think this is overrated. I think that for most parameters, you will not be able to hear the difference between MIDI CC 72 and 73 (for example). And you won't be able to hear "stepping" either.
Of course, there are a few special parameters like detuning a second oscillator relative to the first, where finer control is required (and can easily be heard).
That is why u-he offers the "Fine" mode in its MIDI assignment table. (And I make use of that in my MIDI Mapper script, which allows switching between absolute, relative and fine modes.)

(By the way, when the OB6 sends NRPN, it does not use the complete available 14 bit number range. For most parameters, it sends just 0-127 (or less). For some, it is 0-254 or 255. It never uses more than 8 bits resolution.)

Just my two cents.

[DavidCarlyon]

NRPN's have some issues. First, forget about doing any editing. Also, because each block is 4 midi messages, timing is critical. The 4 must stay together and in the correct order. Any other midi being sent on the same channel can get in the middle of a block. So twisting two hardware knobs at the same time can get mixed up data.

I am mostly just interested in having higher resolution control over key params (cutoff etc) to avoid stepping etc

Two comments:

Regarding "twisting two knobs at the same time can get mixed data":
I just tested this with my setup: OB6 in NRPN mode, Reaper MIDI Mapper script that has a really simple algorithm to convert the NRPN to CC, and Hive. There is no problem when I turn three knobs at once. It translates correctly to three Hive knobs turning. I suppose it depends on the way the NRPN output is programmed in the OB6.

Regarding higher resolution control:
I think this is overrated. I think that for most parameters, you will not be able to hear the difference between MIDI CC 72 and 73 (for example). And you won't be able to hear "stepping" either.
Of course, there are a few special parameters like detuning a second oscillator relative to the first, where finer control is required (and can easily be heard).
That is why u-he offers the "Fine" mode in its MIDI assignment table. (And I make use of that in my MIDI Mapper script, which allows switching between absolute, relative and fine modes.)

(By the way, when the OB6 sends NRPN, it does not use the complete available 14 bit number range. For most parameters, it sends just 0-127 (or less). For some, it is 0-254 or 255. It never uses more than 8 bits resolution.)

Just my two cents.

Which midi mapper script are you using?
I am starting to wonder the same thing - whether it is worth it.
The other benefit of NRPN of course, is access to params unavailable with CC. But then most synths that have NRPN also have preset storage etc.

I just thought if i could map the whole thing, i could maake one 'init' patch and then let the DAW control the rest, so i could flip between projects without having to do anything.

Currently experimenting with standard CC in Reaper - results are pretty good. And it is EASY!! haha.

[evg]

Which midi mapper script are you using?

The one I presented here viewtopic.php?f=31&t=519439, developed specifically for OB6 to u-he synths. (Could be adapted to other DSI synths.)

I am starting to wonder the same thing - whether it is worth it.
The other benefit of NRPN of course, is access to params unavailable with CC. But then most synths that have NRPN also have preset storage etc.

That was one of the reasons I developed that script. I was disappointed that many of the OB6 controls are not available in the CC mode.
Being a software developer, I then had fun implementing a lot of other features to make the experience "seamless" (i.e. mapping the exact LFO waveforms etc). This works especially well for the combination OB6/RePro-5.

I just thought if i could map the whole thing, i could maake one 'init' patch and then let the DAW control the rest, so i could flip between projects without having to do anything.

I did not quite understand what you meant there.

[pdxindy]

Regarding "twisting two knobs at the same time can get mixed data":
I just tested this with my setup: OB6 in NRPN mode, Reaper MIDI Mapper script that has a really simple algorithm to convert the NRPN to CC, and Hive. There is no problem when I turn three knobs at once. It translates correctly to three Hive knobs turning. I suppose it depends on the way the NRPN output is programmed in the OB6.

Yeah, it depends on the situation... how saturated the midi bus is... whether you are sending usb or din... etc. I didn't mean to say it never works... just that it is not entirely reliable.