Am I the only person who feels like Reason is completely unusable since VST support?

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
Anosou
KVRist
144 posts since 22 Jul, 2011 from Stockholm, Sweden

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:40 am

I wouldn't personally say it's unusable, if you don't use any VSTs at all it's as smooth as it's always been, but yes: we've had performance issues with our VST support. Like someone mentioned, it has to do with how we handle buffer sizes in our audio rendering. We've also announced that we're working on an update to adress it, and that it's quite a big one. Here's an article on CDM about it: http://cdm.link/2018/12/reason-10-3-vst/

We've actually just opened the beta testing for Reason 10.3 and there are definite improvements putting us back on track when using VSTs. :party:

You can read more and sign up for the beta: https://www.propellerheads.com/blog/rea ... ow-in-beta

/Mattias (Reason Product Manager)

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Distorted Horizon
KVRAF
1630 posts since 17 Jan, 2017 from Planet of cats

Re: Am I the only person who feels like Reason is completely unusable since VST support?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:52 am

I still use mostly stock stuff in Reason so no issues here.. Only thing reason is lacking is a proper kick tool so BazzISM is pretty much the only vst I use.

Forayer
KVRer
4 posts since 1 Aug, 2010

Re: Am I the only person who feels like Reason is completely unusable since VST support?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:29 am

You'll be happy to know that Propellerheads sent out an e-mail just today about beginning beta testing Reason 10.3, here's an excerpt:

"Reason 10.3 - VST performance update
We’re happy to announce that the beta testing of Reason 10.3 is about to begin. This free update for Reason 10 (including Lite & Intro) is all about improving Reason’s VST plugin performance.

When VST support was first added in Reason 9.5, we received a lot of great feedback. However, we also got feedback about “poor and erratic” performance when using some of your favorite VST plugins. We eventually came to the conclusion that to fix the problem, we had to essentially rewrite big parts of Reason’s audio rendering code. As many of you know by now, that took some time. But now we have a version to share with you and we think you’re really going to like what you see!

Now, VST plugins will work as expected and Reason’s VST performance is on par with other DAWs in the market. As a bonus, the rewrite means Reason will also run faster even when not using VST plugins!

We’re starting the beta testing of Reason 10.3 and would love to get your help, especially if you have encountered VST plugin related problems in the past. Sign up now!"

-Forayer

rewrite history
KVRer
9 posts since 13 Mar, 2019

Re: Am I the only person who feels like Reason is completely unusable since VST support?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:31 am

Anosou wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:40 am
I wouldn't personally say it's unusable, if you don't use any VSTs at all it's as smooth as it's always been, but yes: we've had performance issues with our VST support. Like someone mentioned, it has to do with how we handle buffer sizes in our audio rendering. We've also announced that we're working on an update to adress it, and that it's quite a big one. Here's an article on CDM about it: http://cdm.link/2018/12/reason-10-3-vst/

We've actually just opened the beta testing for Reason 10.3 and there are definite improvements putting us back on track when using VSTs. :party:

You can read more and sign up for the beta: https://www.propellerheads.com/blog/rea ... ow-in-beta

/Mattias (Reason Product Manager)
After all this time of the initial release of Reason with VST support, it's been a lot more then buffer management in your code, trust me. I have a feeling there's not much left of your "audio engine" that was once a proprietary system on lock down. There's a lot of reconstruction going on and rewrites, let's be completely honest here.

Anosou
KVRist
144 posts since 22 Jul, 2011 from Stockholm, Sweden

Re: Am I the only person who feels like Reason is completely unusable since VST support?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:46 am

rewrite history wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:31 am
Anosou wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:40 am
I wouldn't personally say it's unusable, if you don't use any VSTs at all it's as smooth as it's always been, but yes: we've had performance issues with our VST support. Like someone mentioned, it has to do with how we handle buffer sizes in our audio rendering. We've also announced that we're working on an update to adress it, and that it's quite a big one. Here's an article on CDM about it: http://cdm.link/2018/12/reason-10-3-vst/

We've actually just opened the beta testing for Reason 10.3 and there are definite improvements putting us back on track when using VSTs. :party:

You can read more and sign up for the beta: https://www.propellerheads.com/blog/rea ... ow-in-beta

/Mattias (Reason Product Manager)
After all this time of the initial release of Reason with VST support, it's been a lot more then buffer management in your code, trust me. I have a feeling there's not much left of your "audio engine" that was once a proprietary system on lock down. There's a lot of reconstruction going on and rewrites, let's be completely honest here.
Performance is a tricky subject and of course there are a lot of parts to it. However, by far the single biggest cause of the issues people experienced with VSTs in Reason vs. other DAWs was that we've always worked in chunks of 64 samples, regardless of your audio card buffer size, and we forced VSTs to do the same. "How we handle buffer sizes in our audio rendering" is also a relatively easy way to describe it, being both true and not incredibly hard for music makers who aren't programmers (like me!) to understand.

Since most parts of Reason were adapted to these chunks of 64, there were plenty of places we had to change things. So yes, of course there's been a lot of reconstruction and rewriting—I'm not saying there wasn't. Heck, that's why it took a while! :)

chk071
KVRAF
18882 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Am I the only person who feels like Reason is completely unusable since VST support?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:44 am

Oh, another user who just registered yesterday, and immediately trolls a specific company. Who would have thought?

jsp1979
KVRAF
3088 posts since 7 Aug, 2008

Re: Am I the only person who feels like Reason is completely unusable since VST support?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:26 am

chk071 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:44 am
Oh, another user who just registered yesterday, and immediately trolls a specific company. Who would have thought?
This.

Who are the usual suspects in Reason threads?

mladi
KVRist
312 posts since 14 Apr, 2016 from Germany

Re: Am I the only person who feels like Reason is completely unusable since VST support?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:37 am

Why he is a troll when his posts are legit (not offensive) he isn't the original poster and even the dev answered him?
Image

Psuper
KVRist
108 posts since 3 May, 2018

Re: Am I the only person who feels like Reason is completely unusable since VST support?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:20 am

mladi wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:37 am
Why he is a troll when his posts are legit (not offensive) he isn't the original poster and even the dev answered him?
Shh, don't go making sense -- that doesn't compute with the Reason NPCs. Best part is its the same NPC trolls, over and over, who attempt to poo-poo and discredit every post and person that doesn't glorify Reason.
Reason needs to DAW: Props develop the back-end, SDK, performance, options, GUI (no one else can). RE devs develop the now-expanding playground, we choose the rides. If Props insists on making devices, put them in the RE shop. All problems solved.

reggie1979
KVRist
105 posts since 26 Nov, 2018

Re: Am I the only person who feels like Reason is completely unusable since VST support?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:28 am

Anyways, pretty big announcement of 10.3 and I've joined up even though I hate GOB partici...I mean beta testing. Usually the beta runs hot so it will be interesting to see if you even notice an improvement.

rewrite history
KVRer
9 posts since 13 Mar, 2019

Re: Am I the only person who feels like Reason is completely unusable since VST support?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:29 am

Anosou wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:46 am
Performance is a tricky subject and of course there are a lot of parts to it. However, by far the single biggest cause of the issues people experienced with VSTs in Reason vs. other DAWs was that we've always worked in chunks of 64 samples, regardless of your audio card buffer size, and we forced VSTs to do the same. "How we handle buffer sizes in our audio rendering" is also a relatively easy way to describe it, being both true and not incredibly hard for music makers who aren't programmers (like me!) to understand.

Since most parts of Reason were adapted to these chunks of 64, there were plenty of places we had to change things. So yes, of course there's been a lot of reconstruction and rewriting—I'm not saying there wasn't. Heck, that's why it took a while! :)
My point is, people went into it expecting a full 100% VST implementation, when in reality it was just a patch, until you could complete the full rewrite. This is what people have been waiting on in the dark. I think Propellerhead and Reason are on their way back, but it's a long road ahead with a lot of other vehicles on the road these days. I wish you guys the best, but it has been a very long time since things got rocky, what 5 years ago?

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Deep Purple
KVRian
773 posts since 9 Jan, 2015 from NY, NY

Re: Am I the only person who feels like Reason is completely unusable since VST support?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:34 pm

I'm not sure how it's completely unusable.
Sweet child in time...

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pekbro
KVRAF
2402 posts since 29 Sep, 2010 from Maui

Re: Am I the only person who feels like Reason is completely unusable since VST support?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:40 pm

Yeah fine for me mostly, excluding a few resource hog mastering plugins that I don’t use much anyway. I would have been happier with addressing plugin midi myself though.

THE INTRANCER
KVRian
845 posts since 30 Dec, 2014

Re: Am I the only person who feels like Reason is completely unusable since VST support?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:55 pm

Deep Purple wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:34 pm
I'm not sure how it's completely unusable.
The GUI is just too tiny, try using it at 1440P ;-). 1080P is pretty eye straining too.

I remember asking the Props vie social media if Reason 10 came with a magnifying glass in the box. Their response was to sit closer to the screen :-D. That's just not going to cut it in 2019 for me...

I mean really, if they can get the VST performance sorted and have a scalable rack, mixer and GUI, then really... there's no reason why I wouldn't consider going back to it with an upgrade to play about with or at least use vie Rewire with Studio One. Still have 15 RE's I bought which are still floating around in LALA land.
THE INTRANCER-Digital 2D & 3D GUI / Music Artist - Orchestral Trance - Ambient - Film Scores | Soundcloud 27 | Soundclick 16 | Producing Music For 25+Years & Sound Monitoring FOH at UK Stadium/Festivals for Carl Cox, FatBoy Slim ect

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Deep Purple
KVRian
773 posts since 9 Jan, 2015 from NY, NY

Re: Am I the only person who feels like Reason is completely unusable since VST support?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:16 pm

THE INTRANCER wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:55 pm
Deep Purple wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:34 pm
I'm not sure how it's completely unusable.
The GUI is just too tiny, try using it at 1440P ;-). 1080P is pretty eye straining too.
My display is 2880x1800 on a 15" screen and it seems OK to me. Maybe it's the quality of your monitor that makes it less easy to use?

I kind of thought from the thread title that this was related to the implementation of VST functionality causing issues, but I guess I could be wrong about that.
Sweet child in time...

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