daw for midi sequencing with multiple tempos and time signatures

[jancivil]

ways of graphically representing a Midi editor

This was at the top of a google search for 'nested tuplet workaround cubase -dorico' so I checked it out.
(I was working on something where I grew weary of the workaround and of trying to replicate it manually from the score. Took out a trial of Dorico which does it, but trying to do it polyphonically in it was the single worst experience of my life with software. I spent around 4 hours in one bar.)

My findings since way back when include, you may create a couple of types of de facto nested tuplet in the piano roll of Cubendo, 'Quantize Panel': Grid [type], let's go with Triplet 8th note. Obviously 3 per quarter note. With this grid choose your tuplet, EG., '5-let' and save. This is 5 in the time of a triplet 8th note, so the secondary grid with this setting is 15 to a quarter note. Now you have both of these worlds in the sub-grid as well as the regular 16th to a quarter grid.

The other is choose a dotted value as your Grid type (useful most primarily for tuplets in a compound time sig, obv); 5-lets on top of a dotted 8th gets your secondary grid to be 20 in the time of 6 or 30 in the time of 9, etc. So de facto you have 5:4 in a 3, 6, etc time base.

So, you may do such as consider your 4/4 is 12/8 with that (+50%) adjustment tempo-wise and do a tuplet on top of a triplet or onto further dotted values. In effect a third layer.

Not ideal, of course as it means a little bit more thinking.
Also found Muse Score with a show-stopper bug doing this as well. The Logic way is a mite more elegant.
I'm glad I happened on this as I forget how that worked.

[kris.audioplanet]

Digital performer can do that.

[jancivil]

Nest tuplets per se, or have a secondary grid such as that?

[Straight2Vinyl]

I haven't tried yet, but I think Renoise Phrases can do this.

[lfm]

Nest tuplets per se, or have a secondary grid such as that?

Cubase probably offer real flexible metronome at least, so do Digital Performer.

Moving to StudioOne lacking that, I was redirected to this review of BlueCatAudio's PLug'n Script plugin.
http://soundbytesmag.net/review-revisit ... cat-audio/

So author made a really flexible metronome to be used in any daw - ClickItMaster.
Work really well, but lacking some features like volume on each sound - which I fixed with an audio editor on the click sounds to my liking.

But you have great freedom to suggest subdivisions for each time signature the daw is running in.

download the plugin here(link in article too):
http://www.arsov.net/SoundBytes/SoundBy ... nstall.zip

Other solutions, for metronome that is, would be Boss DB-90 which can take midi clock as input - and create just about any pattern for you.

But having Korg Beatlab works too, if just making click track that you align in daw youself - any nested subdivisions in tuplets up to 9th I think. And you easily adjust sound level of each. The Boss has only triplets, so Beatlab is really flexible.

To work in any daw with these external sources you have to adapt to how midi clock works - in that midi clock goes strickly by 24 clock each quarternote, disregarding time signature.

So you run external metronome in 100 bpm, 4/4 8th note triplets - and maybe a decent grid in daw would be 12/8 means you have to set daw to 150 bpm.

These external devices work properly in subdivisions - which midi driven sequencers do not.

So do do this kind of work, wanting a matching grid in daw for the track you working on - you probably record with timebase seconds, not bars+beats, and change tempo track with a fitting time signature to make grid line up with what you recorded. Having a matching grid you could also program easier after that.

[jancivil]

It isn't about a metronome. At all.

I already found a way, but I am stymied by the bar line; if you have say 11 in the time of 2, your bar is 3/4 and the 2 you are crossing occurs as beat 3 and beat 1 in the next bar, Cubase or a grid-based solution will_not show you this.
The metronome has absolutely no bearing on the matter. I can keep time all by myself.

[jancivil]

I'm sorry to have to go into this, but what if a noob reads it and is somehow persuaded.

To work in any daw with these external sources you have to adapt to how midi clock works - in that midi clock goes strickly by 24 clock each quarternote, disregarding time signature.

This is entirely useless per the question and is not even a true statement, it's an absurdity.

So you run external metronome in 100 bpm, 4/4 8th note triplets - and maybe a decent grid in daw would be 12/8 means you have to set daw to 150 bpm.

No kidding. 3:2 means multiply tempo by 1.5.

These external devices work properly in subdivisions - which midi driven sequencers do not.

You're confused again by your dogmatic reliance on 24 (which makes no actual sense). MIDI clock is a non-sequitur.

Basic arithmetic:
I want to deliberate on a product which can't resolve to 24, so, I know one off the top of my head, something I happen to have loaded, I needed to look at this in the project and created this:
Grid = dotted 32. This means that a bar of 6/8 will reveal a secondary grid of 16 upon selection. Tuplet = 11; Cubase will now reveal a secondary grid of 176 for this bar. 176 is so not a product of 24. It has done the arithmetic of 16 times 11, and produced the display. Period. It has properly done subdivision outside the factor of 24. Cubase is not going to err outputting the timing of notes sequences thusly just by exceeding product of 24. This is a product of your faulty thinking only.

[jancivil]

"MIDI clock is a non-sequitur", ie., the sequence of the construction making it fundamental is backwards. MIDI clock is a device of MIDI: MIDI is not a product of MIDI clock as though a teleological truth.


So my real problem is this: I know how to create a nested tuplet these ways, but this is all a function of a bar in this sequencer so It's not doing it purely/per se/in and of itself; you can't cross the barline and see it so if I want to write like this - as opposed to performing it in and never mind the grid restriction - it's not ideal. I know Logic has this other workaround but I don't want to buy Logic X (it would otherwise be of next-to-no use for me), I'd rather do something else. Dorico is extremely buggy here.

[vurt]

can you do it in notation then import to midi?
just to see how it deals with it.
does it just overlap the barre lines?

[lfm]

To work in any daw with these external sources you have to adapt to how midi clock works - in that midi clock goes strickly by 24 clock each quarternote, disregarding time signature.

This is entirely useless per the question and is not even a true statement, it's an absurdity.

Yes, your tuplet=11 clarifies everything for the beginner.

Since midi clock is not fixed on time interval, but on quarternote interval - when tempo varies so do midi clock - meaning midi clocks each second varies too.

Thinking about a clock - you easily think clocks/second - which midi clock isn't.

I think it's really good to know the difference - and understanding why doing arpeggios or anything tempodriven is affected changing time signature.

Now very popular with step sequencers in external gear - very much affected.

I know I was confused, not anymore though, first time I changed time signature in daw how I had to alter tempo for it to feel right. I was on Sonar then more than 10 years ago, and it had no divisions for 8th note triplets as a grid - so to get that support line for each triplet in grid, making editing simpler - I changed time signature to 12/8. Then I get a grid line each triplet. Nice and simple to edit.

12 8th notes, meaning 6 quarternotes( and 24 clocks each quarternotes gives 144 clock each bar).

Coming from eDrum engine the tempo was maybe 100 bpm for simplicity. So you are counting 4/4 tempo with triplet feel - one, and, a - two and a - and so on. To get what metronome in eDrum engine and daw do to get that triplet on every grid line in 12/8 - I had to adjust tempo in daw.

Since 6 quarternotes in in daw is supported to be transported when 4 quarternotes in eDrum engine - setting daw to 150 bpm fixed that.

Just my take on how to clarify this - if it makes sense to anybody.
If not - just ignore.

Anybody running anything but 4/4 in daw, will probably experience a bit of surprise when step sequencer did not give the expected result. It ran just as expected doing internal clock in synth - but with daw it is not????

Midi clock is not clocks/second - that all you need to know - it is clocks each quaternote.

[jancivil]

There is no upside to doing more on this. It's not different than arguing with a crazy person frankly, crazy-making itself.
You actually found it appropriate to intrude - a useless derailment - on a thread people may look for answers to a real question with total nonsense.

[jancivil]

can you do it in notation then import to midi?
just to see how it deals with it.
does it just overlap the barre lines?

That was the plan, so I took out the 30-day trial for Dorico (Steinberg's notation program) which is proudly advertised as doing infinite nesting.
But I started from a drum set notation, and to implement that in Dorico meant a polyphonic layout (its strong suit is clearly elsewhere) and it's essentially botched for this. I could have tried a monophonic layout to see if it worked, but I really hated the interface, pretty much as I hate the Halion interface and it was taking up all kind of space I don't really have (with the Halion orchestra) and I bailed. 4 hrs in one bar doing

I forget now but I carry the impression it would cross the bar lines doing this.

I have MuseScore and it was doing weird shit there was no workaround for (albeit people have made it work for exactly this, I ran into a showstopper) so the search is still on. The workaround using Logic is, well, very logical but I don't know about 200 bucks and still it's not ideal. MuseScore's bug here was attaching two different tuplet groupings with the same beam; and as the whole exercise using notation is visual-centric I cut my losses and just went back into the piano roll. I make it work but it's a kind of crazy m.o.; I ended up with bars of 6/8 which were really bars of 4/4 and shit like this and I would have to make extensive notes to myself to remember what this monstrosity represented in the first place.

[jancivil]

This is what such a thing which doesn't respect the bar line looks like on the page:

crossing the bar.png

[Deep Purple]

Logic Pro will allow you to change the time signature and tempo at specific points in a track - use create time signature or edit time signature to make changes at whatever points you want to, and you can make tempo changes in the tempo operations window (under advanced editing options).

[jancivil]

This isn't about tempo changes. The notated example above, the whole composition is in one tempo, originally in 3/4.
Cubendo allows all of that and does more for tempo, such as Time Warp. Logic in this way however does more, there is a way to nest tuplets in it (or was at the time of the original posts) but I don't see 200 bucks for what is still not quite it; I'm not certain it will place the things crossing the bar, either.

Development of notation programs cares about this, w. DAWs not so much.
I should research DP, another thing I had and sold.