Waveform 8 - some pointers with MIDI please?

[PhoenixOneSix]

Hey guys,

I've got waveform 8 and while I have no issues with using microphones, VSTs and live inputs I'm struggling with setting up a midi input controller.

I've got a Yamaha PSS480 (don't laugh, I couldn't afford anything more upmarket) and have set up the midi driver.
The input monitor is recognising every key hit but the output is very hit and miss and monophonic.

How do I get polyphonic (let's say with FB3300 synth or keyzone piano plugins) inputs/outputs and how do I hear every key strike instead of sporadic outputs?

Thanks guys

[Watchful]

Nothing wrong with a PSS-series!

All right, let's get to making music.

So when you press a key on the PSS, you see the input light up. That's the hard part, and you seem to have that solved!

I'm guessing you're hearing some notes, right, because you said it's sporadic, so your audio output is working?

Are you connected to your computer via USB, or through a MIDI hardware interface? (I want to rule out a bad interface).

If USB, are you going through a hub in between your computer and the PSS? (Could be a bad hub, or there's a latency issue)

If you open a MIDI file, is your VST able to play the notes correctly?

Is your computer output stereo or monophonic? That's where the audio of the VST is going...either to built-in speakers, external speakers, or if you're using an audio interface, it might be outputting to that. I want to be sure we know where your signal flow is at every point. Computers can send it to funny places based on how you've got everything plugged in.

Trust me, your problem should be very solveable! Like I said, you've done the hardest parts already.

[Peter Widdicombe]

This really shouldn't be a challenge - I got a $140 Casio keyboard as an inexpensive 5-octave keyboard, as I kind of liked the feel (for piano) better than the synths I had. Plus it's really light to carry around the house; although probably not road-worthy.

By monophonic - you mean you can't play chords? Particularly in Keyzone, the pianos (the Yamaha patch is nice!) should play chords. Piano .vst's are good for testing - they should be able to play chords, and you should be able to play "pianoforte" - softly or loudly, based on how hard/fast you play each note.

However, you might want to see (in the manual for the keyboard) if there are MIDI settings - either velocity curves, or touch sensitivity - that you can tweak. If it's set to heavy touch and you're playing gently with, say, string VST's you might find they don't play well. If you're heavy-fisted banging away, yeah leave it at heavy. It's also possible (although unlikely) that the Yamaha is set to monophonic, so each new note cuts the previous. Useful for fast trills where you hold one note down and bounce another, but not much else...?

By polyphonic - do you mean chords (as opposed to monophonic), or do you mean multi-zone playing where you split keyboard into say left/right where you can play piano chords on the right, and a double bass part on the left? That one's a little trickier if your .VST doesn't do that directly. Hint - think virtual MIDI inputs, assign to multiple tracks, and put a MIDI filter to silence outside of the range you want. But that's once your MIDI is satisfying otherwise.

Record the MIDI on a track and look at it. If you hold a chord for a full bar, is that reflected in the MIDI roll? Try to figure out whether it's the MIDI input/recording at fault, or the VST is tempermental. Also, have a look at the velocity in Waveform 8
- click on the clip - you should have note events in there
- at the bottom panel, click the "open midi editor"; or just double-click the MIDI clip you've recorded
- click "velocity" so you see the vertical bars underneath piano roll

The LENGTH of each note should be apparent on the piano roll - when you hit, and when you release
The HEIGHT of the bars at the bottom reflect how hard/fast you hit - hopefully they're 50-70% of the height for each note in normal playing

[Watchful]

Ah, shoot. I saw monophonic and thought "not stereophonic." Good catch, Peter.

[Peter Widdicombe]

Yeah, and then you go Polyphonic or Multi-Timbral - multiple simultaneous note capability, or multiple distinct TONES simultaneously... (Multi-timbral from my Ensoniq roots).

[PhoenixOneSix]

Ok, so my setup is...

In:
Yamaha PSS480 --> generic midi in/out - usb converter hub --> USB port --> tracktion midi in (listed as USB A).

Out:
Tracktion track --> Audio VST (such as Keyzone) --> USB --> Behringer UM2 interface --> headphones

The Yammy doesn't have velocity sensitive keys. It does have a midi velocity setting but it's a fixed setting - ie. You set the velocity and it stays like that throughout.

By "polyphonic" I meant able to play chords. The Yammy is polyphonic, multitimbral and has a dedicated midi in/midi out section.

Yes the input is lighting up, but it's not with every note like I thought it was. It's as sporadic as the output.

If I try to play simultaneous notes, the keyboard (or the computer or DAW, I've no idea which) seems to send one of the notes at random.
If I play an arpeggio then god help me!! It plays each note but doesn't release the one before causing a cascade feedback.

Even if it doesn't do that, chords are a no no and I can't play faster than 1/4 notes at 75bpm.
I'm sure it's actually down to the cheapo midi-usb converter i bought. It's a plug-and-play unit that has it's own driver.
So where do I go from here?

[Watchful]

I think we can narrow this down pretty quickly. Here's a quick test.

If your VST has a virtual keyboard with it, and you click on the piano keys (Keyzone has this, I believe), are you hearing sounds you expect?

If so, you've got the output part fixed and ready to go. So whatever MIDI gets to the VST should be working perfectly.

Your input diagram you supplied looks totally correct... so I'm guessing it's either the PSS480's MIDI port acting up (very possible; she's got to be going on a youthful 30, I'd guess?) or it's the MIDI-to-USB conversion.

If you have a can of compressed air, you might try firing it into the MIDI port. Don't hold the can upside-down, of course, but a blast of compressed air into the MIDI OUT port might blast out something that's causing the irregularities. A lot of dust can get into those over the years.

I'm also guessing you connected your headphones to the audio out of the PSS480 directy...thereby ruling out the keyboard just acting up in general.

So if your PSS480 outputs to your headphones just fine, and your VST is playing out as you expect, it's down to the hub or the MIDI OUT jack on the PSS480.

I hate to ask, but how inexpensive was the MIDI-to-USB converter?

[Peter Widdicombe]

Waveform doesn't have it built in, but try using MIDI-OX (free). WITHOUT loading waveform, load that, and configure the midi device detected by Windows. Then use the midi monitor feature to see what really IS coming in on the MIDI interface.

If you play a chord, you should see 3 "note on " messages, and then when you lift fingers get 3 "note off" messages.

[Peter Widdicombe]

Actually, I *did* find a free MidiMonitor .VST that you can use, but only 32-bit tracktion or older Waveform. Similar functionality.
Oh, and a search for 64-bit midi monitor vst yielded some results as well.

Or... seeing as how the Yammy has no velocity, there are lots of choices in basic low end keyboards with MIDI output or controllers with standard USB output. I have a casio CTK-3200 from a few years ago, Bestbuy about $140 Canadian, with touch sensitivity and MIDI output. It's really nice, even if you're not really a keyboard player, to still have dynamics.

Nice in that you can also just turn it on and play, but sounds (at least with built-in speakers) is crappy, but I only bought it as a cheap 5-octave full-size basic midi controller.

A 4-octave M-Audio keystation would be about $100 US.

[PhoenixOneSix]

I hate to ask, but how inexpensive was the MIDI-to-USB converter?

Ask away. It was only about £5 from Wish.

Oh, and I haven't tried headphones but the keyboard acts properly when using it with it's integrated speakers

[zzz00m]

I fully agree with the suggestion to use MIDI-OX as a MIDI monitor to see exactly what the computer is receiving from the MIDI adapter. What you see is what you are getting. If the MIDI messages are messed up, it is a data communication problem.

MIDI-OX will allow you to rule out whether the Yamaha keyboard and/or MIDI adapter are dropping or corrupting the expected MIDI messages.

If MIDI messages are not being received as expected, then you could possibly try these steps (maybe borrow some gear from a friend):

-Test the adapter with a different MIDI keyboard (this rules out the Yamaha keyboard MIDI output section)

-Test with a different MIDI interface adapter using the original Yamaha keyboard (this rules out the MIDI adapter)

-Test with a different MIDI keyboard that uses MIDI over USB (this rules out the Yamaha keyboard and the MIDI adapter)

[PhoenixOneSix]

I, probably foolishly, opted for the cheap interface because I'm not a massive keyboard player. The Yammy was bought when new and as far as I know has never been used for midi. I'll definitely look at the MIDI-OX option. I'm running the 64 bit version and it doesn't communicate with 32 bit. I'll see if I can grab hold of another keyboard to try. I've got a friend who might have one I can plug in to my laptop to try

[zzz00m]

I'm running the 64 bit version and it doesn't communicate with 32 bit.

Of what?

[Peter Widdicombe]

MIDI-Ox is standalone, but the swiss army knife of MIDI utilities. It will only work when Waveform isn't running, as it and Waveform both take exclusive use of the MIDI adapter.

The 64-bit version of the MidiMonitor vst should be OK, though.
http://www.vst4free.com/free_vst.php?id=1432 is one example.