Coming soon

[wilx]

Re. the scope - will that change to represent the parameters currently being modified? So if I start fiddling with the amplitude envelope, will I see that represented in the scope? Or will there at least be an option to make one 'lane' of the scope be 'current/last touched parameter'? That would be useful and would save quite a lot of clicks.

[Urs]

Re. the scope - will that change to represent the parameters currently being modified? So if I start fiddling with the amplitude envelope, will I see that represented in the scope? Or will there at least be an option to make one 'lane' of the scope be 'current/last touched parameter'? That would be useful and would save quite a lot of clicks.

The strength of the scope is showing change over time at a resolution that is higher than the screen update rate (the reason why LEDs and balls in orbit are just jumping erratically when you need them the most). It's very good at "from then to then", it is however not very good at "current" or "now".

Visual representations for envelopes and stuff were discussed, they were almost there even, but then we decided to roll most of the UI back to familiar knobs and faders. We will need to find a hybrid approach, maybe some kind of context sensitive overlay and stuff. We don't have a good way at doing this currently.

[wilx]

A context-sensitive 'current/last parameter' would be a good way of using part of the scope (without needing to change the UI) to provide visual representation for amps etc as per alchemy, serum, new massive etc. People who don't want it can leave it off, and the people who prefer a more direct visual feedback (like those other synths do so well) can have it.
I find there's always an interim step between seeing a slider- based envelope to translate that to what I will hear. Whereas with (for example) serum I can not only see the envelope visually, I can see the path the sound takes along it. That kind of thing is really good design - visual feedback. And not superfluous at all. Saves lots of time over the course of a big project with lots of cues etc.
And integration into the hexagon scope means the design works for everyone!

That said, it all looks great so far and I can't wait to start using the new Hive!

[Urs]

That kind of thing is really good design - visual feedback.

I disagree - it allows you to see only one at a time. We certainly could do amazing things if we wanted to tab Hive, but that's exactly what we want to avoid. Workflow is much faster without tabbing.

Hive's "the whole synth on a single page" concept would get crowded and convoluted quickly with such feedback. The traditional knobs-faders-and-displays interface keeps Hive transparent and usable.

In my opinion, Serum's envelope display isn't such a great thing at all. It doesn't tell me much either. It's a massive waste of space which is mostly justified because of consistent looks, but usability could have been improved by showing more information than just one simple envelope. Also, there's always the grmpf!&$$% when you realize it's not editable in the way the LFOs are. It's what I always wonder, why claim the same looks when it doesn't do the same stuff. And long envelopes just disappear to the right. Not really the best example for good design IMHO.

OTOH generations of musicians were doing just fine with only 4 faders. I think it's still viable to do this.

[wilx]

I mostly agree, but to clarify I wasn't suggesting tabbing, just having the scope in the hexagon represent the envelope (as it does already for the fancy new mseg stuff) when you modify it.

As for only displaying one thing at a time, doesn't the current 'four slider' setup do the same? You just have sliders for adsr with no other feedback or information. The serum method at least adds the subtle (and useful) feedback of where you are along the envelope.

It's an interesting thing to think about though - now developers are not 'restricted' by hardware knobs and sliders, what's the best, most intuitive & informative way to present all of the information and control present in a synth? Hence all the different approaches by each company

[pdxindy]

The serum method at least adds the subtle (and useful) feedback of where you are along the envelope.

I prefer Hive to Serum... In Hive 2, all 12 modulators are visible at once and there is no tabbing needed. Serum requires too much tabbing for doing editing, plus because most of the modulators are not visible at any given moment, I end up tabbing just to remember how they are set which is just wasted motion.

Maybe the Serum approach is good for beginners that don't know how to use Envelopes and LFOs and need the visual reference. I don't need it. I have no trouble hearing where an envelope is. And with Hive v2, if needed, I can display the envelope in the scope.

[surreal]

Where is Hive 2?

[EvilDragon]

In beta.

[PieBerger]

The serum method at least adds the subtle (and useful) feedback of where you are along the envelope.

I prefer Hive to Serum... In Hive 2, all 12 modulators are visible at once and there is no tabbing needed. Serum requires too much tabbing for doing editing, plus because most of the modulators are not visible at any given moment, I end up tabbing just to remember how they are set which is just wasted motion.

Maybe the Serum approach is good for beginners that don't know how to use Envelopes and LFOs and need the visual reference. I don't need it. I have no trouble hearing where an envelope is. And with Hive v2, if needed, I can display the envelope in the scope.

I'm the same, Serum is a fantastic synth but I've pretty much abandoned it now because for all that it's a very visual and intuitive, when it comes to more complex sound design it's just a tab fest. If you want to modulate modulators you either have to keep tabbing back and forth or stay in the mod matrix. The latter kind of defeats the point of having such a visual UI in the first place.

[Ploki]

I sold Serum because Hive inherited WTs.
I think Serum is good and gained a (specific) and loyal following for a reason, but it took me too much work to make have it sit in a mix. I still miss it sometimes when i need something gritty and heavy, but I have Bazille for that now.

[wilx]

Maybe the Serum approach is good for beginners that don't know how to use Envelopes and LFOs and need the visual reference. I don't need it. I have no trouble hearing where an envelope is.

I disagree it's about 'beginners' vs experts, or similar. It's about looking beyond what hardware did, and thinking about the best, most intuitive way to display information. And everyone has different ways of processing information, and different levels of experience in synthesis.

Personally, if I load up a patch and I hear a pulsing element, in a well-designed synth I can pinpoint where that is coming from by looking at the visual feedback. Is it coming from a sequencer? A looping envelope? An arpeggiator? A looping cycling of the wavetable? etc etc
On some synths I have to go through, section-by-section and fiddle until I work it out. On a synth with *useful and well-implemented* visual feedback, I can usually see some sort of visual element which is matching the timing of the pulse I hear, which means I can crack on and edit it straight away.

I would say for a lot of people, there's a visual element to music - when I'm writing away from the piano, I still picture the keyboard. Years of reading and writing music means you tend to see a lot of stuff in sheet music form - arrangements, intervals, rhythms etc. All visual stuff. So to me, looking at a synth and instantly seeing what the envelopes look like, what any modulation is doing etc suits the way I process musical information. It won't be the same for others, of course, and especially for people who just like to tweak synths in an evening and aren't blessed with horrible deadlines!

Having said all that, it does look like the scope and some other tweaks will help a lot with regard to the visual feedback, intuitiveness and ease/simplicity of use. Hive 1.2 sounds phenomenal and any update which aids the workflow will make it even better.

[pdxindy]

So to me, looking at a synth and instantly seeing what the envelopes look like, what any modulation is doing etc suits the way I process musical information.

That is why I like Hive... in Hive 2 all 12 env/lfo type modulators are visible at once. In something like Serum, at any given moment, most of the modulators are not visible or editable.

[wilx]

So to me, looking at a synth and instantly seeing what the envelopes look like, what any modulation is doing etc suits the way I process musical information.

That is why I like Hive... in Hive 2 all 12 env/lfo type modulators are visible at once. In something like Serum, at any given moment, most of the modulators are not visible or editable.

Yes - I agree with that. I would just prefer it if there was just a bit more indication as to what stuff was being modulated. Even without balls-in-orbit or fancy graphics, just a subtle highlight/LED type thing to say 'this parameter is being modulated' - that would be a big timesaver for me.

Along with envelopes that look like envelopes!

[PieBerger]

So to me, looking at a synth and instantly seeing what the envelopes look like, what any modulation is doing etc suits the way I process musical information.

That is why I like Hive... in Hive 2 all 12 env/lfo type modulators are visible at once. In something like Serum, at any given moment, most of the modulators are not visible or editable.

Yes - I agree with that. I would just prefer it if there was just a bit more indication as to what stuff was being modulated. Even without balls-in-orbit or fancy graphics, just a subtle highlight/LED type thing to say 'this parameter is being modulated' - that would be a big timesaver for me.

Along with envelopes that look like envelopes!

Hive's interface will be pretty full/busy with the v2 additions and I don't see how they could fit four envelopes of a large enough size to be actually usable without having tabs, which Urs has already stated they want to avoid as much as possible in Hive (and for good reason). For all that Serum's envelopes are very visual and hands on etc, they demand the implementation of a tabbing system which is a serious workflow killer and simply not appropriate for a synth that was designed/marketed to be fast/efficient to program.

[wilx]

You're right - it might be a squeeze. Could still be doable though. To me this looks clearer and less busy than using sliders:



EDIT: Having gone through the two videos posted earlier, it looks like you can visualise the amp envelopes in the Scope, along with everything else - which is pretty cool. My only wish now would be for one of the scope lanes to be set as 'current/focused/last-touched control' .