Theory behind a 4th inversion G7#9 chord with a dropped 5th?

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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jancivil
KVRAF
18271 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Post Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:39 am

moonmadness wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:38 am
A# is the same as Bb
Except when it isn't. Spelling is meaningful, there are reasons for such a distinction.

Any G to any A is a second or a ninth.
G to Bb is a minor third or tenth. For example G A# D is not how a G minor triad is spelled.
G minor as a tonal harmony will be:
i for key of G minor; ii for key of F major; iii for key of Eb major; iv for key of D minor; v for key of C minor; vi for key of Bb major. All of these are flat keys where Bb is a given.

OTOH: G to A# is the sixth to seventh degrees in B minor, harmonic minor where A# is the major third of its dominant harmony F#. These are not interchangeable. First of all a chord built by thirds is built by thirds and G to A# is an augmented second; note its use as 6 & 7 of B minor. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 = G A B C D E F. B C D E F G A. etc

So again: G to A# in the OP is a "#9" which is another way to state 'augmented second' plus the octave, 'augmented ninth' is the literal interval. The convention in place shows 3 qualities of 9th as well as the 3 qualities of 7th. Beyond that, we do say something else. G to 'A double sharp', or G to B sharp; well we have G to B, or G to C; a 3rd or 10th, 4th or 11th normally and we might get into an absurdity.
We might on the other hand consider G to Cb as something meaningful, albeit rare. In a chord dim 4 is not going to supplant M3 if that's the look, augmented 3rd is not going to supplant a P4 in a normal harmony.
"Double sharp 9th', no: 3rd or 10th; double sharp 10th, no: 4th or 11th.
C E Fx, no; that's like G A# D.

OTOH: linearly...
IE: we may write a line preserving the alphabet/simplifying the copy, eg., descend F Eb Db Cb Bb Ab G.
An octatonic scale might be spelled G Ab Bb Cb Db D E F (vs G Ab Bb B C# D E F), we can't avoid doubling one of the letter names in an 8 tone scale (never do this w. 7 notes). As a decoration of G7 in a C key we have G7 major/minor b9 #11 13 vs G7b5 b9 #9 13.
So, for the soloist navigating that, A# and Bb are more or less the same (and an academic matter really), the spelling is not necessarily defined as it is in a 7-note scale usage. (this may seem exotic, but it's actually normal vocabulary in modern jazz)
Carnatic scale theory (melakarta), the default 'shuddha' in the system has everything as flat as can be (excepting a diminished 4th or 5th, out of an ideology) and still have 7 names. G Ab Bbb C D Eb Fb. We have no concern for chord names here. So a further illustration of the differing concerns, linear vs chords.


These are the real and known definitions aka limitations.
Define limits for yourself, no prob, not necessarily to anyone else tho.

trewq
KVRist
301 posts since 24 Nov, 2008

Re: Theory behind a 4th inversion G7#9 chord with a dropped 5th?

Post Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:04 am

I'm getting a couple of scales from A# G B F that sound super weird as well.

C# Prometheus - C# D# F G A# B

C# Prometheus Neapolitan - C# D F G A# B

Here is another but not sure the name or spelling is acceptable :? :

B Augmented - B D D# F G A#

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jancivil
KVRAF
18271 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Theory behind a 4th inversion G7#9 chord with a dropped 5th?

Post Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:50 pm

the last one shouldn't have two Ds, it's less than 7 to worry about

With the name 'augmented' I would look for Fx as an augmented fifth. B Cx D# E# Fx A#. B as a major key is a pretty sharp basis. Except for that, the others, while not matching the exact idea of the scales there's nothing wrong with the choice of names, you can think originally.* Why not B D Eb F G A#.


Prometheus Scale derives from the Scriabin Mystic Chord I think. I love that one, it's like Lydian b7, some call it Lydian Dominant (I wouldn't).
Also 4th mode of rising melodic minor.

C# D# E# Fx G# A# B for the full v. on C#. The idea of the double sharp is is #4 (C to F is a 4th).
* You could think of the G as a flat 5; there's no other fifth. C# to F is that diminished 4th, harder to justify.
I like you looking at hexatonic variants, I do that, I found long ago that sometimes 7 amounts to sort of clutter.

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cturner
KVRian
518 posts since 7 Dec, 2009 from GWB

Re: Theory behind a 4th inversion G7#9 chord with a dropped 5th?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:54 am

jancivil wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:54 am
BTW, there is a fairly famous instance where Schoenberg (before the 12-tone) came up with a 4th inversion harmony (by ear actually) and a group refused to perform it.
From 1886, César Franck's Sonata for Violin and Piano in AM opens with V9(4/3).

There's also this, quoted from Grove, on Rameau's notion of "supposition":
The concept, proposed by Rameau (Traité de l’harmonie, 1722), that chords of the 9th and 11th, among others, arise from a 7th chord by placing a ‘supposed’ bass one or two 3rds below the Fundamental bass. For instance, in the chord f–a–c′–e′–g′–b′ the fundamental bass is c′, while the ‘supposed’ bass is f.
Tranzistow Tutorials: http://vze26m98.net/tranzistow/
Xenakis in America: http://oneblockavenue.net

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jancivil
KVRAF
18271 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Theory behind a 4th inversion G7#9 chord with a dropped 5th?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:57 am

Wow, way back then a big ol' #11 chord. I did not know that!

I actually have done a lot of specifically that; or like C/F; ie., F G C E; Bb F G C E.

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cturner
KVRian
518 posts since 7 Dec, 2009 from GWB

Re: Theory behind a 4th inversion G7#9 chord with a dropped 5th?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:54 am

'course another way of addressing the function ("theory of") the collection A# G B F is to consider it part of the "D diminished" octatonic scale:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octatonic_scale

Image
Tranzistow Tutorials: http://vze26m98.net/tranzistow/
Xenakis in America: http://oneblockavenue.net

datroof
KVRist
118 posts since 19 Sep, 2012

Re: Theory behind a 4th inversion G7#9 chord with a dropped 5th?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:18 pm

jancivil wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:22 am
the instructor actually said there is no such thing, thats a major/minor chord.

Does the major/minor chord/scale have a dom 7? That almost makes sense from the standpoint of gospel (and other similar) musics, where that #9 note is actually treated like part of the scale. A lot of cool gospel licks alternate between major and minor third.

datroof
KVRist
118 posts since 19 Sep, 2012

Re: Theory behind a 4th inversion G7#9 chord with a dropped 5th?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:20 pm

cturner wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:54 am
'course another way of addressing the function ("theory of") the collection A# G B F is to consider it part of the "D diminished" octatonic scale:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octatonic_scale

Image
Are you thinking of Ab (rather than A#)? That scale works on a b9 chord, but not necessarily on a #9 chord.

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jancivil
KVRAF
18271 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Theory behind a 4th inversion G7#9 chord with a dropped 5th?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:35 pm

:dog:
*Which* #9 chord does it not work on?

G7#9 was given; G Ab A# B C# D E F; 1 b9 #9 3 #11 5 13 7
E7: E F Fx G# A# B C# D; same set.
C#7: C# D Dx E# G# A# B; same set.

now the other symmetrical octatonic.
A7: A Bb B# C# D# E F# G; same relation to the chord.
C7; same relationship, cf. (D#).
Eb7; same again, (F#).

Symmetrical octatonic is a go-to if you want b9 and #9 in the same chord.
Last edited by jancivil on Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

datroof
KVRist
118 posts since 19 Sep, 2012

Re: Theory behind a 4th inversion G7#9 chord with a dropped 5th?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:32 pm

jancivil wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:35 pm
:dog:
*Which* #9 chord does it not work on?

G7#9 was given; G Ab A# B C# D E F; 1 b9 #9 3 #11 5 13 7
E7: E F Fx G# A# B C# D; same set.
C#7: C# D Dx E# G# A# B; same set.

now the other symmetrical octatonic.
A7: A Bb B# C# D# E F# G; same relation to the chord.
C7; same relationship, cf. (D#).
Eb7; same again, (F#).

Symmetrical octatonic is a go-to if you want b9 and #9 in the same chord. Literally necessarily true.
Unless one doesn't get the whole 0 1 3 or 0 2 3 basis for the scale, then you do have a 50% chance at the mistake.
Yes, the Ab dim (whole-half) would be the go-to for G7b9, or G7alt. Not so much for G7#9, especially if you want the classic #9 sound. D dim (as CTurner said) would only work as half-whole, which is usually not the default. That's why I say "not necessarily".

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jancivil
KVRAF
18271 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Theory behind a 4th inversion G7#9 chord with a dropped 5th?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:50 pm

datroof wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:18 pm
jancivil wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:22 am
the instructor actually said there is no such thing, thats a major/minor chord.
Does the major/minor chord/scale have a dom 7? That almost makes sense from the standpoint of gospel (and other similar) musics, where that #9 note is actually treated like part of the scale. A lot of cool gospel licks alternate between major and minor third.
I don't know what scale that is. This guy was coming from 20th c art music perspective.
I don't know why a dominant 7th, V7 harmony would define or determine #9 vs two qualities of thirds.

The Foxy Lady chord, on a guitar: F# on the 6th string, A# E A or Gx on the top three strings; this isn't a dominant chord, it sits there as I. Blues third is a thing, so we may as well grant that. Either way, doesn't matter/doesn't *function*.

Jazz dominant 7th, as I said, does a particular thing with #9 b9 particular as a property of its [minor?] i target, and since the lexicon likes to say 9th chord there is such a thing as a #9. The spelling is not really crucial, ie., you could write E7 and the desired top you're indicating be G-F, to E of an A harmony, albeit there is the G# in the chord at the same time. Everyone understands that by sight, tho.

The first time I saw '#9' was the Foxy Lady chord someone showed me when I was 15. It's simpler to put that in a lead sheet or what-have-you vs the perhaps confusing Major/minor b7. That's not really so good.
Again that guy's convention was modern serious music and this was the context of the course. Still, I said to myself this is some bullshit.

Another issue with saying that is you say <major/minor 7th> to describe what people typically call Dominant 7th type. I don't call that harmony that per se because "dominant" is a function. Then there is the minor/major 7th type, eg., A C G#.

datroof
KVRist
118 posts since 19 Sep, 2012

Re: Theory behind a 4th inversion G7#9 chord with a dropped 5th?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:54 pm

datroof wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:32 pm
jancivil wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:35 pm
:dog:
*Which* #9 chord does it not work on?

G7#9 was given; G Ab A# B C# D E F; 1 b9 #9 3 #11 5 13 7
E7: E F Fx G# A# B C# D; same set.
C#7: C# D Dx E# G# A# B; same set.

now the other symmetrical octatonic.
A7: A Bb B# C# D# E F# G; same relation to the chord.
C7; same relationship, cf. (D#).
Eb7; same again, (F#).

Symmetrical octatonic is a go-to if you want b9 and #9 in the same chord. Literally necessarily true.
Unless one doesn't get the whole 0 1 3 or 0 2 3 basis for the scale, then you do have a 50% chance at the mistake.
Yes, the Ab dim (whole-half) would be the go-to for G7b9, or G7alt. Not so much for G7#9, especially if you want the classic #9 sound. D dim (as CTurner said) would only work as half-whole, which is usually not the default. That's why I say "not necessarily".
D'oh, I realize you're right. D dim would have to be whole-half to contain Bb/A#. Well played!

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jancivil
KVRAF
18271 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Theory behind a 4th inversion G7#9 chord with a dropped 5th?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:03 pm

datroof wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:32 pm
jancivil wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:35 pm
:dog:
*Which* #9 chord does it not work on?

G7#9 was given; G Ab A# B C# D E F; 1 b9 #9 3 #11 5 13 7
[...]

now the other symmetrical octatonic.
A7: A Bb B# C# D# E F# G; same relation to the chord.
[...]

Symmetrical octatonic is a go-to if you want b9 and #9 in the same chord. Literally necessarily true.
Unless one doesn't get the whole 0 1 3 or 0 2 3 basis for the scale, then you do have a 50% chance at the mistake.
Yes, the Ab dim (whole-half) would be the go-to for G7b9, or G7alt. Not so much for G7#9, especially if you want the classic #9 sound. D dim (as CTurner said) would only work as half-whole, which is usually not the default. That's why I say "not necessarily".
Well, it was there in the scale given. G Ab A#. Everyone doing it in jazz knows from G Ab A# or Bb for G7b9 #9 (#11 13) with no worries. The application for a dominant 7th in that usage is necessarily true. G A Bb C Db Eb E F#: you would almost never want C or F# over a [real] G7 so it's kind of a moot point for 'chord/scale theory' tbh.

I actually saw the supposed <never do a plain 11th over a dom 7th> in a Wayne Shorter chart once. If you did the 'other' symm. octatonic you would be really pushing function to a next level tho.
Last edited by jancivil on Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

datroof
KVRist
118 posts since 19 Sep, 2012

Re: Theory behind a 4th inversion G7#9 chord with a dropped 5th?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:05 pm

jancivil wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:50 pm

a dominant chord, it sits there as I. Blues third is a thing, so we may as well grant that. Either way, doesn't matter/doesn't *function*.

...

Another issue with saying that is you say <major/minor 7th> to describe what people typically call Dominant 7th type. I don't call that harmony that per se because "dominant" is a function. Then there is the minor/major 7th type, eg., A C G#.
Yeah, I don't like the "major/minor" label either. 7#9, even with Foxy Lady voicing, can function as dominant or tonic (or subdominant if you like). But it is the basis for some gospel music, and a lot of blues, which are/can be dominant (chord, not function) or minor, or both. I've always been drawn to that sound.

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jancivil
KVRAF
18271 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Theory behind a 4th inversion G7#9 chord with a dropped 5th?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:06 pm

Oh yes, blues third ambiguity, me too.

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