MeldaProduction

gentleclockdivider · Post by **gentleclockdivider** » Sun May 12, 2019 1:45 pm

Modulating the frequency of a filter ( plus some reso) with a 20 Khz lfo produces horrible distortion .
Maybe add some audio rate capable filters or at least a warning that the current filters are NOT designed for that

MeldaProduction · Post by **MeldaProduction** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:41 am

No filters are designed for that. This is how it works sorry. Just please think about what modulating something with 20kHz LFO means.

gentleclockdivider · Post by **gentleclockdivider** » Mon May 13, 2019 12:03 pm

Why is 20 khz too much , the lfo is just an osc ..plenty of synths have a filter fm input
In msf case , even 1.5 Khz is enough to explode the filter
And yes, reaktor's core filters have absolutely no problem with insane audio rate mod , so please don't say it's not possible .

Thanks for the heads up

Whywhy · Post by **Whywhy** » Mon May 13, 2019 12:50 pm

Perhaps, the new filter could allow audio rate modulation....

Gone soft · Post by **Gone soft** » Mon May 13, 2019 6:27 pm

Vojtech, I love so much about MSF and I have great respect for your work as a plugin developer but here I'd say you're wrong. People have been using audiorate modulation of filters forever in hardware and for quite some time on software as well.

I hope sometime in the future perhaps in the TurboFilter there will be filter(s) in MSF suitable for audiorate modukation.

In software some examples of filters quite capable of audiorate modulation:

The XMF filters in u-he Zebra 2
u-he Bazille
Admiral Quality Poly-Ana

There are plenty more, these where the ones I could think of that I've actually any experience with.

jmg8 · Post by **jmg8** » Mon May 13, 2019 6:47 pm

Please forgive me if I get this wrong.
I thought that audio rate modulation was between 20hz to 20khz. Whenever I have used audio rate modulation I have had the modulator key tracked, so I dont think I ever really got close to 20khz rate. So do we really want it to go that high? Is there something I don't know?

n9research · Post by **n9research** » Mon May 13, 2019 6:49 pm

MWobbler with an oscillator sidechain to the follower allows a little more musical range out of Filter FM, mainly due to the ability to slew limit the follower using Attack/Release/RMS settings. Of course this is FX-only, so out of the realm of per-voice Mod, unfortunately..

Infact, wouldn't Slew Limiting be an excellent addition to the Voice Mod lanes? It could be useful for all kinds of things!

gentleclockdivider · Post by **gentleclockdivider** » Mon May 13, 2019 7:48 pm

It's not about the 20 khz lfo ,that was a simple example ..they will explode at 1.5 khz also
It's about audio signals as modulation source in general , msf's filters can't handle it
I love audio rate modulated filters , otherwise it wouldn't be on legendary synth like the oddisey , moog , pro 1 etc ..
Modulating the filter (with some reso ) with noise is also NOT recommended on MSF
But I expected a different answer from the developer stating that filters are not designed for that.
The filters are imho the weakest part of msf

Gone soft · Post by **Gone soft** » Mon May 13, 2019 8:10 pm

One of many examples of how audiorate modulation of filters can give interesting results, this one in hardware:

jmg8 · Post by **jmg8** » Mon May 13, 2019 8:16 pm

Audio rate modulation in MSF is great! Especially when used on the transformation (PWM, sync, bend etc).
The LFO when put into "Follow note frequency" mode is really useful with the octave and semitone offsets.

However I have not actually tried it on filter frequency yet, so I take your word if it sounds bad.

Maybe it will work on TurboFilter?

Chandlerhimself · Post by **Chandlerhimself** » Tue May 14, 2019 3:04 am

Filter FM does work in MSF. You can do it now, but becareful with the resonance control. The filters in MSF aren’t analog modeled, so you can’t expect the same behavior. I believe many analog filters decrease in volume as the resonace increases, so you’re less likely to clip and high resonace settings. MSFs filters don’t do this and in fact they get louder with more resonace. If you want to do filter fm turn down the resonace or output, preferably both.

Don’t worry however, new filters are planned that should give different sounds and perhaps solve this problem.

gentleclockdivider · Post by **gentleclockdivider** » Tue May 14, 2019 12:19 pm

NO they don't and those that don't explode instantly , will eventually when playing with the resonance .
Saying that we should be carefull with the resonance control proves that these filters are not designed for audio rate modulation .

Just use the noise source as a modulation source for the 2 pole filter with resonance ( it happens with any filter )

MeldaProduction · Post by **MeldaProduction** » Wed May 15, 2019 2:14 pm

Have you actually heard about a software that would allow doing that and sounds good?

Because I don't. One of the problems of the digital audio is that it is "extremely fast", so it actually does what you want (while HW doesn't it basically smoothens things out, because the components are just not that "fast"). So here you can also smoothen things out, but that's not what you want is it

. You know, with power comes responsibility. Saying "be carefull with the resonance control proves that these filters are not designed for audio rate modulation" is the same like saying "you cannot say be careful when driving a car, because that would mean the cars are not designed to be driven"

gentleclockdivider · Post by **gentleclockdivider** » Wed May 15, 2019 6:40 pm

MeldaProduction wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 2:14 pm Have you actually heard about a software that would allow doing that and sounds good? Because I don't. One of the problems of the digital audio is that it is "extremely fast", so it actually does what you want (while HW doesn't it basically smoothens things out, because the components are just not that "fast"). So here you can also smoothen things out, but that's not what you want is it . You know, with power comes responsibility. Saying "be carefull with the resonance control proves that these filters are not designed for audio rate modulation" is the same like saying "you cannot say be careful when driving a car, because that would mean the cars are not designed to be driven"

My honoust opninion is that you are too defensive , and seriously there is lot's of software that sounds good and does audio rate filter fm
But if you want some examples , here goes ...
-All reaktor core filters , and I mean all of them can handle audio rate and are zdf implementations
-Cytomic the drop (filter plugin )...you can download the demo
https://cytomic.com/drop
-Tal mod ..demo it

https://tal-software.com/products/tal-mod
-U-he bazille and all his analogue emulations ...

And lot's of others
I respect all the hard work you ar putting in your plugins amd msf is fantastic , but don't be soo defensive ..
I guess we won't see audio rate filter then
Here's a link/book by the filter mmaster himself ( vadim zavalishin ) who developed the core language for reaktor
https://www.native-instruments.com/file ... _1.1.1.pdf

Gone soft · Post by **Gone soft** » Wed May 15, 2019 6:53 pm

Also again the XMF filters in u-he Zebra 2.

MeldaProduction

KVR Audio

modulate filter with 20Khz lfo ..