MSF Envelope Module—REALLY wet?

[David]

Is there a way to give each of several osc modules their own uniquely adjustable envelope, with NO input from the Global one, or iow, to get the Envelope Module's Wet/Dry knob to work as expected, providing a blend from all global to NO global?

Blending already works quite well and interestingly, but it's still a blend at 100% Wet. CAN the mix ever be set up so it's ONLY the Env Module working?

[werzel]

Have you tried setting the Global to 0 Attack, 0 Decay, 0dB Sustain and 0 Release? Essentially making the Global Envelope either on or off at a key press, correct? This would give you the NO Global input when using the Envelope Module, or allow them to have full influence. (I did NOT fully test this. It was my go to idea and it seemed to do what you wanted.)

[jmg8]

Have you tried setting the Global to 0 Attack, 0 Decay, 0dB Sustain and 0 Release? Essentially making the Global Envelope either on or off at a key press, correct? This would give you the NO Global input when using the Envelope Module, or allow them to have full influence. (I did NOT fully test this. It was my go to idea and it seemed to do what you wanted.)

This is how I work anyway, for this reason.

[David]

Yup, I'd hit on that option too, which is quite good—MORE than good enough, actually, plus the blending is very cool! Thanks for the suggestion!

[dmbaer]

Have you tried setting the Global to 0 Attack, 0 Decay, 0dB Sustain and 0 Release? Essentially making the Global Envelope either on or off at a key press, correct? This would give you the NO Global input when using the Envelope Module, or allow them to have full influence. (I did NOT fully test this. It was my go to idea and it seemed to do what you wanted.)

This is not sufficient. The global envelope is also the gate. If it has zero release, then the sound terminates immediately upon note-off. But you don't want to give it the longest possible release either, or resources will be held far beyond what are needed.

So, give the global envelop 0 attack, 100% sustain, and a custom release. That custom release keeps things at 100% until the end of the release time and then drops immediately to 0. Then give the global envelope the longest release time needed by the envelope but not longer.

[David]

Have you tried setting the Global to 0 Attack, 0 Decay, 0dB Sustain and 0 Release? Essentially making the Global Envelope either on or off at a key press, correct? This would give you the NO Global input when using the Envelope Module, or allow them to have full influence. (I did NOT fully test this. It was my go to idea and it seemed to do what you wanted.)

This is not sufficient. The global envelope is also the gate. If it has zero release, then the sound terminates immediately upon note-off. But you don't want to give it the longest possible release either, or resources will be held far beyond what are needed.

So, give the global envelop 0 attack, 100% sustain, and a custom release. That custom release keeps things at 100% until the end of the release time and then drops immediately to 0. Then give the global envelope the longest release time needed by the envelope but not longer.

Excellent—Details!! Thanks. I'd actually turned the sustain up to 100% myself as I fiddled around, but didn't get the Release-time aspect.

[n9research]

This is not sufficient. The global envelope is also the gate. If it has zero release, then the sound terminates immediately upon note-off.

Not if you disable "Percussive"

From the manual:

Percussive button activates the immediate release mode in which case the note-off causes an immediate switch to the release stage. If this is disabled, the release stage does not occur until the whole attack/decay stage finishes.

I have to say, reading forum posts on KVR, many people single out the UI (which i think is excellent!) as difficult to deal with, but the way MSF implements envelopes and voicing modes has been by far the most difficult part for me to understand and get used to - there are many options and idiosyncracies that are very difficult to understand and result in unexpected behaviour

For instance, "Polyphonic (1 per note)" voicing with a Release stage results in overlapping voices that are playing the same note - that doesn't seem to make sense at all. As well as the behaviour of MDrummer envelopes in Monophonic mode that I've made a separate post about here

I've sometimes spent hours trying to get a seemingly simple voicing and envelope behaviour to work in MSF when building more complex instrument setups. I've even resorted to wrapping MSF in a Bidule and building logic to filter out or reorder certain MIDI events like Note Off to get what I need..

[dmbaer]

This is not sufficient. The global envelope is also the gate. If it has zero release, then the sound terminates immediately upon note-off.

Not if you disable "Percussive"

From the manual:

Percussive button activates the immediate release mode in which case the note-off causes an immediate switch to the release stage. If this is disabled, the release stage does not occur until the whole attack/decay stage finishes.

The global envelope is still the master gate. When release ends, the note is over, irrespective of any secondary amp envelopes. Percussive has nothing to do with that aspect. However ...

I don't have time to construct a proof at the moment, but I think the manual misstates things. Percussive, by its very name, is intended for percussive events. You want the whole sound (including full decay section) to play out irrespective of how short the note duration is. I believe that's what the documentation is trying to say ... but like I said, I don't have the time to build a test case to demonstrate this.

I stick with what I said earlier (unless Vojtech cares to tell me that what I said is erroneous) about using secondary amp envelopes and the role of the global envelope in that situation.

[jmg8]

I work the same as dmbear.
I have attack at 0, decay at 0, sustain at 0db and release will be as short as I can, but at least as long as needed.

[dmbaer]

I work the same as dmbear.
I have attack at 0, decay at 0, sustain at 0db and release will be as short as I can, but at least as long as needed.

Assuming there's a secondary amp envelope that's the "real" envelope, it's critical to have a custom release curve (as I described earlier) that stays at 100% until the final instant of the release period. Otherwise, you will have the global envelope release contributing to the reduction already introduced by the secondary amp envelope. It's actually very simple, once you've figured out how the first time (which is not at all hard anyway).