Just getting back into tracktion and wanted to really start using more advanced methods of mixing than just putting the same plugins on every single track. The T7 instruction guide I have details both using aux send/receive plugin, and also a submix method of selecting tracks and creating a submix folder.
My question is why would you do one or the other? They both seem to be for controlling the effects of multiple tracks from one spot. Is there something you can do with effects bus that you can't with submix and vice versa?
Submix vs Aux send/receive
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- KVRist
- 37 posts since 11 Mar, 2005
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- KVRist
- 473 posts since 1 Feb, 2006
the basic difference is, that for a submix, the outputs of tracks are summed together into one bus, this incorporates all the effects on these tracks and the volume and pan. when you then use effects on this bus, it influences the whole mix of all these.
an auxbus with send/receive will get its signal from tracks also, but the "send-point" can be anywhere in the effect/volume/pan chain of this track. also the volume of this send will not affect the overall trackvolume, it is separate.
this way you can send different portions of audio from different tracks to effects (hall, chorus, delay, etc.) without affecting the overall mix of these tracks (that said, the auxbus output will change the perception of the mix, depending on how much effectsignal is fed back to the masterbus).
that's the basics. there is a lot possible with clever routing of signals and the use of submix- and auxbusses, also with combinations of both. but you have to figure that for yourself. just experiment with both and you will find how they can be useful for your mixing.
in tracktion there is also racks, as a third method of complex routing. but these can be irritating, if you do not understand the concept completely. i would first try to master aux and submix and then go further to racks.
an auxbus with send/receive will get its signal from tracks also, but the "send-point" can be anywhere in the effect/volume/pan chain of this track. also the volume of this send will not affect the overall trackvolume, it is separate.
this way you can send different portions of audio from different tracks to effects (hall, chorus, delay, etc.) without affecting the overall mix of these tracks (that said, the auxbus output will change the perception of the mix, depending on how much effectsignal is fed back to the masterbus).
that's the basics. there is a lot possible with clever routing of signals and the use of submix- and auxbusses, also with combinations of both. but you have to figure that for yourself. just experiment with both and you will find how they can be useful for your mixing.
in tracktion there is also racks, as a third method of complex routing. but these can be irritating, if you do not understand the concept completely. i would first try to master aux and submix and then go further to racks.
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- KVRian
- 524 posts since 16 Mar, 2017
To put that another way, with an effect on a submix, the final output is the output of the effect. Some effects offer a "mix" control that allows you to provide a mix of the original sound with the effect sound, and for most VSTs and the like Waveform offers the "wet" and "dry" controls in the inspector that can provide a similar capability, though those seem to be unavailable for most of the built-in plugins.
With an effect on a bus, the final output is a mix of the track output with the effect output, plus you get the option of sending the original sound and the effect sound to different outputs if your interface allows for it, the option of having sends to multiple different effect busses, the ability to send arbitrary combinations of tracks/submixes to the same effect bus, etc., at the cost of potentially introducing a tiny amount of delay to the sound of the effect.
For example, if I have tracks A, B, C, D, and put A and B into a submix, I can put an effect on the submix to have it impact the sound of both A and B.
I can then put tracks C and D into a submix to have an effect shared by them.
However, if I also have an effect I want to apply to both A and C, then I either need to put two copies of the effect in place (on the individual tracks) thus using double the amount of processing power, or I can put it on a bus and route A and C to the bus, allowing me to use one instance of the plugin.
If I am working in an environment in which I want one person to be able to monitor with an effect while someone else hears it without, I can put the effect on a bus and send the output of the bus to the one who who should hear the effect, but not to the one who should not, though they might both get the sound of the original track.
With an effect on a bus, the final output is a mix of the track output with the effect output, plus you get the option of sending the original sound and the effect sound to different outputs if your interface allows for it, the option of having sends to multiple different effect busses, the ability to send arbitrary combinations of tracks/submixes to the same effect bus, etc., at the cost of potentially introducing a tiny amount of delay to the sound of the effect.
For example, if I have tracks A, B, C, D, and put A and B into a submix, I can put an effect on the submix to have it impact the sound of both A and B.
I can then put tracks C and D into a submix to have an effect shared by them.
However, if I also have an effect I want to apply to both A and C, then I either need to put two copies of the effect in place (on the individual tracks) thus using double the amount of processing power, or I can put it on a bus and route A and C to the bus, allowing me to use one instance of the plugin.
If I am working in an environment in which I want one person to be able to monitor with an effect while someone else hears it without, I can put the effect on a bus and send the output of the bus to the one who who should hear the effect, but not to the one who should not, though they might both get the sound of the original track.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 37 posts since 11 Mar, 2005
Thanks so much! This really helped. It seems like the submix is more "basic", while the effects bus allows a little bit more advanced uses as you can place the aux send plugin at whatever point in the mix process/flow of the track.
In my earlier DAW days I did try to understand racks in tracktion but didn't have a good enough knowledge of mixing to understand.
In my earlier DAW days I did try to understand racks in tracktion but didn't have a good enough knowledge of mixing to understand.
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- KVRAF
- 1604 posts since 9 Jan, 2018
If it helps, keep in mind that any DAW, not just Tracktion, is trying its best to emulate recording techniques that are decades old.
Looking at how things used to be done, with hardware, makes a lot of this easier to understand. And there are no rules, really: studio engineers would do whatever worked, and no two engineers consistently addressed things the same way. The whole idea is flexibility.
Consider if you were recording a real drumset, with a live drummer. You probably would mic every drum head and cymbal separately.
Scenario 1: the song calls for the drums to fade in over a guitar solo intro. Wiring these mics physically as a subgroup allows you to use a single fader to bring up a dozen or so mics equally, all at once. As the guitarist solos her intro, you start fading in the drums using the submix volume fader instead of trying to manage a dozen tracks all at once. That's one way to do it.
Scenario 2: the song calls for the drummer to play, but the cymbals are going to be flanged. You send those mics to a flanger, and its return goes back to the recording desk. By controlling the aux send, you can increase, decrease, trigger, or fade in/out the flanging to taste. And that's one way to do it.
The point of this is that studio engineers working with hardware had all sorts of easy ways and shortcuts to manage multiple tracks based on the need. As the group here has commented, there's lots of ways to accomplish these situations. And Tracktion, which is a virtual studio, offers you the same techniques if you wish--using plugins or real hardware wired in.
As you start to mess with these approaches, you're going to find all sorts of clever and resourceful ways to use these. If you get stuck, it might help to think of an old-fashioned studio with dozens of cables laying across the floor! That's how we used to do it, and DAWs let us recreate the results without all the mess and tangles.
Looking at how things used to be done, with hardware, makes a lot of this easier to understand. And there are no rules, really: studio engineers would do whatever worked, and no two engineers consistently addressed things the same way. The whole idea is flexibility.
Consider if you were recording a real drumset, with a live drummer. You probably would mic every drum head and cymbal separately.
Scenario 1: the song calls for the drums to fade in over a guitar solo intro. Wiring these mics physically as a subgroup allows you to use a single fader to bring up a dozen or so mics equally, all at once. As the guitarist solos her intro, you start fading in the drums using the submix volume fader instead of trying to manage a dozen tracks all at once. That's one way to do it.
Scenario 2: the song calls for the drummer to play, but the cymbals are going to be flanged. You send those mics to a flanger, and its return goes back to the recording desk. By controlling the aux send, you can increase, decrease, trigger, or fade in/out the flanging to taste. And that's one way to do it.
The point of this is that studio engineers working with hardware had all sorts of easy ways and shortcuts to manage multiple tracks based on the need. As the group here has commented, there's lots of ways to accomplish these situations. And Tracktion, which is a virtual studio, offers you the same techniques if you wish--using plugins or real hardware wired in.
As you start to mess with these approaches, you're going to find all sorts of clever and resourceful ways to use these. If you get stuck, it might help to think of an old-fashioned studio with dozens of cables laying across the floor! That's how we used to do it, and DAWs let us recreate the results without all the mess and tangles.
Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, and even Deezer, whatever the hell Deezer is.
More fun at Twitter @watchfulactual
More fun at Twitter @watchfulactual
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 37 posts since 11 Mar, 2005
Yes, reading up on basic audio hardware mixing techniques actually helped alot.
I do have one last question...are effects tracks meant to work with audio clips only? I was easily able to create an effects track for my 2 audio synth clips putting an aux return on the effects track and aux send on the synth tracks. Works great. But when I tried it with my midi drum tracks it didn't work. I did create a separate bus for the drum tracks and made sure the aux return and sends matched. But when played back nothing was going through to the drums effects track.
The only way I got the midi drum tracks to send output to another track (not using submix folder) was by setting the output destination of both tracks to the one track.
I do have one last question...are effects tracks meant to work with audio clips only? I was easily able to create an effects track for my 2 audio synth clips putting an aux return on the effects track and aux send on the synth tracks. Works great. But when I tried it with my midi drum tracks it didn't work. I did create a separate bus for the drum tracks and made sure the aux return and sends matched. But when played back nothing was going through to the drums effects track.
The only way I got the midi drum tracks to send output to another track (not using submix folder) was by setting the output destination of both tracks to the one track.
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- KVRAF
- 2461 posts since 9 Oct, 2008 from UK
A downside with emulating hardware, of course, is that when it comes to hardware, electrons move instantly, but when it comes to software, bits of code have to shuffle things around, adding latency.
[W10-64, T5/6/7/W8/9/10/11/12/13, 32(to W8)&64 all, Spike],[W7-32, T5/6/7/W8, Gina16] everything underused.
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- KVRian
- 524 posts since 16 Mar, 2017
Are the MIDI drums being used with an external sound generator (module/drum machine) or with a virtual instrument (plugin)?JumboNewJack wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:27 am I do have one last question...are effects tracks meant to work with audio clips only? I was easily able to create an effects track for my 2 audio synth clips putting an aux return on the effects track and aux send on the synth tracks. Works great. But when I tried it with my midi drum tracks it didn't work.
The effects bus will need audio data.
If you are using a plugin to convert the MIDI data to audio, that plugin should be to the left of the send on the channel strip area - then the audio should reach the bus send.
If you are using external hardware, you will need to place the send on a bus where the audio from that hardware exists. If you are sending the MIDI out to the hardware and bringing it back into the DAW on a separate track, make sure the send is on the track where the audio is coming back in. If the audio being produced externally is also being mixed to your monitors externally, and the audio is not being brought back into T7, then T7 does not have access to the audio in order to send it to the FX bus, so that obviously won't work.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 37 posts since 11 Mar, 2005
Just a drum VST. No audio or midi-to-audio plugin. I guess that's my answer. thanks fde101!
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- KVRAF
- 2417 posts since 17 Jun, 2003
The drum vst is your midi to audio plugin. It's output is audio. Put your send after that, to the right of that, and it'll work.
"my gosh it's a friggin hardware"
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- KVRian
- 524 posts since 16 Mar, 2017
Correct, the "drum VST" is the "virtual instrument" that produces audio from the MIDI data. MIDI plugins go to the left of that and manipulate the MIDI data before they reach the VI, and audio plugins (such as bus sends) must go to the right of that, as they manipulate (or in this case capture) the audio coming out of the VI. Data flows from left to right along the channel strip.