What's your technique for loudness of different sub notes on sub lines

[Mathematics]

Back in the day, I would just let the higher notes sound a little louder than the lower ones and used my ears to set the levels of loudness of each sub note. Later, I started using Loudness meters to help gauge what the perceived loudness would be and still used my ears and better judgment. Fast forward some time later, when I discovered harmonic distortion, I started adding harmonics above the sub fundamental.

After that with some experimenting and reverse engineering some songs, I found that I found that some mixing engineers added the harmonics like I just mentioned but they notched away between 50-80Hz. The result of this was a cleaner sub sound when the song was played through a good set of speakers but you could still perceive sub sounds through cell phones and computer speakers.

The level though, was always a tough thing to settle on besides just using my better judgement and reference tracks. What's your technique or tips on setting the levels of sub lines that contain a melody, i.e., a series of notes that follows and supports the main melody. I''m genuinely trying to find a clever technique if you've got one to share. Thanks in advance!

[lwj]

Lol, I was thinking about more sensible to say but I honestly just 'ear it' and try to fix it at the source (eg. note velocity) if it's a problem.

[Forgotten]

Lol, I was thinking about more sensible to say but I honestly just 'ear it' and try to fix it at the source (eg. note velocity) if it's a problem.

I would agree. If your monitors are good enough, you should be able to play the bass line through a few times and adjust your playing dynamics until it sounds right.

[Mathematics]

Not to take too much time. I prepared a demonstration of a line consisting of 3 simple, descending, one octave scales in C. I used Ableton Live 10 because I figure everyone has Live, that might find this interesting. Make sure you're monitoring with Youlean (free version) for this.

https://youlean.co/youlean-loudness-meter/

The only paid plugin used in this demo is Waves' MaxxBass but you don't actually need it...I only used it to add more harmonics so if you're monitoring without a sub, you'd hear what I'm talking about but I still added enough saturation that you would just need to turn up the volume a little more without MaxxBass. No surprise peaks or anything. All notes are tamed.

https://mega.nz/#!70t2gALK!wdprQWYCnUNc ... SY--ww-SE8

The first one is just a scale with the same velocity per note, the second clip is the same as the first in terms of velocity but one octave lower, and the third is the same as the second octave but with the velocity modified to have equal perceived loudness. I sculpted the sub line using Massive and enhanced with MaxxBass. This is nothing new. I also loaded span and Youlean Loudness meter, both of which are free, for monitoring. There was no particular reason I chose these, other than the fact that they are free. I could have chosen others as well, but let's move on.

What to notice: In scale 1, the apparent loudness is something we're all used to and for most genre of music. The first scale contains frequencies that cut through on most speakers. Also, check this on small speakers. I set MaxxBass to saturate enough where the bass still will play perfectly well on crap speakers, even with an 80Hz low-cut!

What if we were to lower those notes one more octave? That's what the second clip is (scale 2), the same as the first but pitched down one more octave with same velocity per note. Well, you guessed it...you can't hear them on small speakers, nor could you saturate enough to even make them perceivable without a lot of buzzing if you have say, orchestral music or something really busy. In this case, you either raise the velocity or sidechain the sub to dip elsewhere.

The third scale is just demonstration of the velocity adjusted per note to make up for the loss of loudness perceived in the scale 2. You can see this on Youlean. I still use my ears and sub but sometimes it's hard to know how much to change the velocity. This was kind of the motivation for this post...to see if anyone has a certain way that they use for balancing out the loudness levels for really subby parts when saturation isn't helping.

[RobustAmerican]

I use good old volume automation to tame the louder pitches. Once you have the amount of volume reduction set for a particular pitch you can copy the automation. Sometimes I end up with different amounts of volume reduction for different pitches depending on the sound and how varied the melody is.

Processing...Saturation, Compression, etc. is another matter.

[powermat]

i've messed around with midi note number automation ( as the midi notes go higher in number, reduce the output volume of the instrument ) but nothing works as good as using your ear and adjusting manually... the easiest I've found is using velocity and having it mapped to the instrument output volume or amp or whatever

[DJ Warmonger]

Multiband compression. I always squeeze hard the band below 70-90 Hz. Clarity or dynamics are not a matter, as there are none in this region anyway.

[Mathematics]

Thanks for the feedback. Definitely, the compression is the way to get the peaks in check. Years back, I read about using a limiter to get the peaks in check, so I've used an L1 since but only after I get the perceived loudness of the notes as close to the same level as possible by using monitors and headphones and of course, testing it out in cars and such.

Originally, I thought the loudness meter technique was a practical way of getting a series of sub notes at similar loudness levels when you feel you can't trust your ears on really low notes. I kind of wanted to evolve this idea into a real technique.

I make orchestral, LoFi, and EDM songs, but mostly orchestral scoring for weddings and private venues. For the record, making music is not my primary job. Anyway, I'm not sure if you guys have experience making orchestral music, but I, find it rather complicated and challenging mixing in those lush, artificial sub-harmonics that you find in Hollywood movies because the notes you follow with the sub-line, usually have to follow the melody and depending on the range of the notes in the passage, you may playing sub notes that are so low, that not only pro level gear can produce those sounds. Most of the time, you can't even hear it. but you can feel it.

Even harmonic saturation from the lowest fundamental, when mixed in orchestral music, will almost always occupy the cellos and viola section and just get lost in the mix. I just make space for the sub part at the expense of the lows of the Basses and Cellos, which is a pain to balance the sub with the basses and cellos so that the song, on small speakers, doesn't sound like fluffy dog that got wet. Know what I mean? I've always had difficulty with busy sections. To be honest, I'm probably making a bigger deal about this than I should be because this isn't Hip Hop and I think I'm committing and mixing faux paux by trying to adapt mixing techniques for Hip Hop to orchestral. Sorry, but I have yet to look over the shoulder of Hans Zimmer.

I agree, nothing beats good old-fashioned manual tweaking and that's pretty much what I've relied on for my bass tracks. By the way, yes, compression/limiting does boost the lows but with the makeup gain, but in orchestral music, I found that you can only apply a slight amount, before you inherently raise the buzzing of the artificial sub-harmonics with the makeup gain.

[lwj]

You could try something like the Louder Than Liftoff Chop Shop EQ, if there's something else like that. I'm not sure what exactly it does, but the lo-rider mode can add a LOT of bass out of seemingly nowhere without it sounding out of place. It doesn't sound like any bass enhancer I've heard.

For compressing you should probably (I have 0 experience with orchestral) go for very low ratio's (below 2) and then maybe lower thresholds, soft knee so it's not crushing anything but just riding the gain along a bit.

[Mathematics]

I read up on LTL, and that is a really cool Tilt EQ! Thanks for the suggestion. I actually liked it for the LoFi tracks, not this...lol. That resonant bump in the EQ curve really adds the beef in the low end...that's probably what you mean when you say, "add a LOT of bass out of nowhere..." I agree.

I heard about this plug but didn't really pay much attention to it before, but I could see that really coming in handy on kicks...especially for some LoFi tracks to get that subtle, non-click thump...like the low end of that new hip hop song, Go Loko by YG. There's a part where the sub hits so sexy in that song. Not my kind of music, but I really appreciate the sonic charateristics of a lot of Hip Hop songs and rap songs. So, I listed to a lot of rap and hip hop and study the low end of those songs. That, is a lot of where my inspiration for sculpting the low end comes from, and part of the motivation for this post TBH.

I think I'm going to have to experiment with different compression techniques than the limiter technique I was using before, and maybe add a bit of a resonant curve...after the compression stage or two stage compression? I don't know, but you've given me something new to work with. Yea, the compression ratio...definitely got to keep it small for subby subs, indeed. Thanks!

[Mathematics]

Sorry to quote everyone here but I guess this is kind of a bookmark for me.

I use good old volume automation to tame the louder pitches.

For samples, precisely. That or dynamic velocity control if one is using a synth.

Sometimes I end up with different amounts of volume reduction for different pitches depending on the sound and how varied the melody is.

Yep...that's exactly where my difficulty is at because in orchestral, the melody can have a very dynamic range which pushes intervals too low. So, sometimes I have to really push volume of the lower notes much higher...but to what level? That is where I think (and somewhat successfully) using the loudness meter has actually come in handy. However, for some of the higher notes, it's somewhat useless and cumbersome and good old "ear-ing" it is more than ideal.

...just 'ear it' and try to fix it at the source (eg. note velocity).

Most of the time, that's all I need...when the notes get really subby though, I resort to reference tracks, or that Loudness meter technique. Lol. I feel like I'm trying to sell people on that...I'm totally not. I'm only mentioning it because it did help me balance out a melody and I think this technique could help someone with a similar problem. The Loudness meter is really only helpful when the sub part is a melody and is just too low to hear and hard to gauge the feel. I think I have a decent set up but I can't tell if what I feel is going to be what other systems can feel because subs have different frequency responses. I'm not using an SVS or anything like that. I'm using a humble HS8S sub, which can reproduce frequencies down to 25Hz, somewhat. Definitely for anything above 30Hz, it's a beast. I think I might have to invest in this:
https://shop.subpac.com/products/subpac-s2-seatback

Multiband compression. I always squeeze hard the band below 70-90 Hz.

I do that for getting the kicks to hit hard, but subby synth stuff clutters up the low end in orchestral. Lower compression settings always seem a lot cleaner.

You could try something like the Louder Than Liftoff Chop Shop EQ...the lo-rider mode can add a LOT of bass out of seemingly nowhere without it sounding out of place. It doesn't sound like any bass enhancer I've heard.

Best suggestion ever. I demo'd it and wow...it's like a secret weapon. Playing around with it, I've revisited tracks I've already done and this thing REALLY supercharges the THUMP. I had to get it...thanks for this awesome suggestion. In fact, I tried it on the orchestral piece I'm talking about in this post, and it made dialing in the meat of the sub-sub part very simple. Like magic.

For compressing you should probably (I have 0 experience with orchestral) go for very low ratio's (below 2) and then maybe lower thresholds, soft knee so it's not crushing anything but just riding the gain along a bit.

That's pretty much how I've been doing it. Very transparently, but not...if that makes sense. I've been using the the bx_opto on slow and even the TCL Twincom on the lowest ratio and a pretty fast attack...not the fastest though. Same with the release. Quick release, so as to avoid needing to raise the makeup.

By the way, on that plugin you mentioned...I used it on the bassline for a LoFi song I just stared messing with, but I replaced the actual piano part I'm working on, with the Beverly Hills Cop theme song. It actually came out sounding pretty stupid, but hey, it's the concept that really matters in this case, not the melody.

Here's the standard bassline without LTL engaged.
https://soundcloud.com/user-401942083/t ... ar/s-KlBxC

Here's the one with LTL engaged and loudness matched:
https://soundcloud.com/user-401942083/t ... on/s-jC9pX

Stupid sounding...heck yea, but you know how it is. Though, the actual track I'm working on sounds way cooler than this. I took out the other instruments, so it seems a bit bass heavy. So, on the LTL version, I did no other eq...I only inserted the plug and isolated the thump and added a resonant bump at 60Hz and tilted the eq toward the bass about 30 degrees to the left from center (west of north). Oh, I used no velocity control on the notes. All notes have static velocity; kind of like old school bass. The loudness metered version just plays the lowest note louder, but I didn't like the way it sounded so I just kept what you're hearing. If this were an orchestral snippet, I would have treated the bassline differently.

Anyway, that LTL plugin really adds a lot of weight, don't you think?

I guess it goes without saying, but something worth noting, is to choose the right key for which sub lines that do accompany, will have he greatest impact. This is between 35-55Hz. In this case, something like G or A. The Eminem song above happens to be in A minor.

[xbitz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRxZ_nldKKM
7:40 >

[Mathematics]

What a blast from the past. Yea. I remember watching this video years ago. Awesome video! I know this ducking age scooping technique so well. In fact, this is a technique I can honestly say that I've mastered. This is a great tutorial for EDM music. The problem I was talking is for orchestral, basically anything Hollywood produced. The only solution really, ears and a pair of headphones and a sub, and testing out the song on different sets of speakers. In fact, this video talks about it at 30:10 however, it's still addressing EDM.

A really good example is Eminem's "Good Guy" (specifically at 1:37):

https://youtu.be/X-TkrWpO75k?t=97
This song is a good example of good balance between arrangement and sub bass.

[dangayle]

I was just listening to the Tron Legacy soundtrack. Those guys mastered the art of combining digital + orchestral in a seamless manner. You might try finding information on how that was produced.

[perpetual3]

Check out FAW Sublab and their x-sub osc - it is excellent for sub bass. Then go read the sublab forums if you don’t want to buy sublab.