[SOLVED] MSF ADSR - part 2

[mevla]

I imagine Hive works the same way: it's just not showing you on the GUI, although it's possible that the synth stops processing as there's nothing left to do. But that would mean the same thing: there's no audible processing of the release phase.

I'm afraid that's not the case. At least from the user/player perspective. With Hive2, the MIDI keys are held and the sound will go front he decay to the release cycle. If it was faithfully shown graphically it would be the same: goes from decay to release without any stopping. Just like playing a real acoustic piano (or just about). Or an acoustic guitar. The sounds produced by those will not hit a silent spot in the middle of their production. They will rather smoothly flow from decay to release while the user/player is still holding the key (or pressing the string on a guitar). I find this very natural.

Although I'm all for an 'uprooted' UI with no relation to the physical world (or attempting to do so with all kinds of 3D artifacts) I'm more for sticking to the physical world when it comes to sound generation.

With MSF (and most probably MPS) there does not seem to have a natural path. Sustain (and the observance of a MIDI key being pressed) will always be there, either at 0db or at silence. And this does not feel natural at all. I'm certainly not against having those capabilities, although a provision to sound natural would be quite nice, isn't it ?

[mevla]

If you take for instance the Percussive/Hard/Beliissimo preset and shorten the decay to say 180ms a bump will be heard as it jumps over the sustain set at silence. This bump is made less flagrant with a longer decay cycle but it's still there, the consequence being less flexibility is shaping the sound since one has to 'bargain' a good decay value to counteract the effect of the silence which simply does not get out of the way to provide a smooth transition from decay to release.

What Chandler does in his latest video on drums, is to use a second envelope. The global envelope has a max sustain of 0db whereas the second envelope, hooked on the volume of the noise sound generator with a sustain of silence.

[Gamma-UT]

You've somehow got it into your head Hive and other synths work in a certain way. There is no release cycle - there is only a decay/sustain cycle - while a MIDI note is held. Control is only handed to the release phase only takes over once the key is released.

Also, on most physical instruments, there is a separate sound that results from the key or string being released, which is handled by synths that understand key-up velocity messages and trigger AR envelopes for them.

What does happen with Melda that's somewhat counterintuitive is that the decay phase plays out no matter how long the key is held unless the Percussive switch is on. Is this what you're seeing?

[mevla]

So far I did not see much difference with Percussive either enabled or disabled.

You've somehow got it into your head Hive and other synths work in a certain way. There is no release cycle - there is only a decay/sustain cycle - while a MIDI note is held. Control is only handed to the release phase only takes over once the key is released.

Well, I've tried with ZebraHZ and Hive so far. I can try with others as I'm actually curious about this and how software developers have handled this aspect of sound generation.

What you described in the quote above is the behaviour of MSF. It will hang on in the sustain cycle until the MIDI key is released. Not so with Hive2 and ZebraHZ as they will behave, in absence of sustain, as a natural instrument of the percussive kind: hold an acoustic piano chord for 5 minutes and it will transition from its decay to the release all by itself.

Also, on most physical instruments, there is a separate sound that results from the key or string being released, which is handled by synths that understand key-up velocity messages and trigger AR envelopes for them.

Indeed, although I want to keep things simple. On an acoustic piano the release of a key will stop all sound processing (apart from resonance from the wooden enclosure, etc...)

What does happen with Melda that's somewhat counterintuitive is that the decay phase plays out no matter how long the key is held unless the Percussive switch is on. Is this what you're seeing?

Well not really. The decay cycle is most certainly not looping. Things really stop at the sustain cycle. If sustain is silence then nothing will be picked up by the release cycle once the MIDI key is released. If sustain is at max 0db, then the release cycle will only be started once the MIDI key is released - which is totally not representing the acoustic piano metaphor.

While you were replying I added text about Chandler's latest video on percussion. It's interesting because he uses a second a envelope hooked on the generator (noise) volume and this one is with a sustain of silence (with a slope) whereas the global one has a sustain of 0db. Maybe that's the way to go with MSF regarding this ?

[jmg8]

The way the ENVs in MSF are behaving is completely standard. The release stage should not start until you release the key. It does not matter what is happening with the decay or sustain, this is irrelevant to the start of the release stage.
Are you suggesting that UHE have envelopes that start the release stage even when you still have the key pressed?
That would really surprise me if that was true, as I have never seen this before in any synth.
I might download the hive demo and test it.

[jmg8]

I have just tested in Hive and get the exact same behaviour as in MSF. I really do not understand what you think is different.
Please try to describe it as concisely as possible, I get a bit lost in the long posts. I do want to help you with this.

[Soundplex]

Are you suggesting that UHE have envelopes that start the release stage even when you till have the key pressed?

Not happening here at least in Hive. Release only picks up when the note ends while still being in decay.

[mevla]

I have just tested in Hive and get the exact same behaviour as in MSF. I really do not understand what you think is different. Please try to describe it as concisely as possible, I get a bit lost in the long posts. I do want to help you with this.

I think I'm being quite accurate. You have Hive2 ?

1) Load: 05 Pads & Strings -> BJN Manta

2) Drop the sustain to 0 as shown in the screen shot above in this thread.

3) Hit and maintain for 30 seconds a C maj chord

What happened ?

I've also tested so far with SynthMaster2, Factory and MUX. Take a sound, drop the sustain to 0 as if you do not want any sustain at all. Hit and maintain a note or a chord for 30 seconds. What happens ? Of course there has to be some decay.

In all cases the notes/sound will hit the release stage despite the fact that you are still holding the MIDI notes.

Just like an acoustic piano. Or a guitar. Or a marimba. Or any natural instrument in the same vein (excluding the ones that are directly powered by human action, like brass, bowed strings, woodwinds, organs (by concept)).

So far I still think that Chandler's use of two opposite (regarding sustain) envelopes might be the only way to achieve what is commonly done with a single natural envelope. I'm not saying that this wrong. It adds capabilities but, it would be nice to have a 'natural' option that is not organ-based so to say.

[mevla]

I think I'm being quite accurate. You have Hive2 ?

1) Load: 05 Pads & Strings -> BJN Manta

2) Drop the sustain to 0 as shown in the screen shot above in this thread.

3) Hit and maintain for 30 seconds a C maj chord

What happened ?

To compare, using MSF:

1) Load Pads -> Soft -> Airpad

2) Hold a chord for 30 seconds. For 30 seconds the sound will be heard.

3) Try to get rid of the sustain. Can you ? How easy was it ? How much flexibility did you have in doing so ? Did you have to always consider the dead silent point and try to come up with something ?

[Gamma-UT]

Are you turning the FX off on these "tests"?

[jmg8]

I loaded the preset you mentioned in Hive 2.
I minimized the sustain down to 0.
I held the key and it decays to silence.

You seem to be getting release and decay confused here.
The reason this sound decays to silence is the DECAY, it does NOT enter the release stage (whilst the key is still pressed)

[mevla]

I loaded the preset you mentioned in Hive 2.
I minimized the sustain down to 0.
I held the key and it decays to silence.

You seem to be getting release and decay confused here.
The reason this sound decays to silence is the DECAY, it does NOT enter the release stage (whilst the key is still pressed)

Not so sure. When it enters the release cycle it has to enter with some substance.

Put the decay at max on Amp1 and 2 and the release on both at 0. With a stopwatch, time the duration. Then put the release at max on both while the decay stays the same. About 2-3 seconds more.

So now, how do you achieve the same with the Airpad patch in MSF ? Eg. holding a chord while you hear it fade away.

[jmg8]

Time the duration of what?
If the sustain is at full and the key is held, then the sound will continue forever. Once again, the release stage will start when you release they key.

[mevla]

Are you turning the FX off on these "tests"?

I'm sorry if it gives the impression of being "tests". I do not have any unit testing for these kind of "tests" nor do I have any middleware framework that would do so and optionally log all data to a spreadsheet. Sorry.

I'm actually curious if there exist such test frameworks for engineers working with audio applications.

So no, no effects at all.

[mevla]

Time the duration of what?

Of the subject matter. The sound.

If the sustain is at full and the key is held, then the sound will continue forever. Once again, the release stage will start when you release they key.

So how do you achieve with MSF the same effect as you have heard on Hive2 when the sustain is at 0 while holding the keys ? Increasing the delay does not sound as flexible.