Native Instruments Massive X Synth - Sequel to Massive (Out Now!)

[Vortifex]

Tbh it's not any alleged aliasing that people should be bothered about, it's the lack of basic features and functionality in a so-called next generation flagship synth. The video by Composing Gloves linked earlier was bang on.

Most of us are pretty much in agreement that there's lots of stuff currently that's missing and that's needed pronto. Midi learn and user manual for example. There's just not much of a point in discussing on a matter that we all agree on, now is there? It's not like we can set up a plan to fix it.

The sadowick saga however is interesting matter because it holds larger implications about the whole educational side of youtube and its potential to mislead people be it intentionally or unintentionally

Which is a whole different topic for another thread, no?

[perpetual3]

Tbh it's not any alleged aliasing that people should be bothered about, it's the lack of basic features and functionality in a so-called next generation flagship synth. The video by Composing Gloves linked earlier was bang on.

Most of us are pretty much in agreement that there's lots of stuff currently that's missing and that's needed pronto. Midi learn and user manual for example. There's just not much of a point in discussing on a matter that we all agree on, now is there? It's not like we can set up a plan to fix it.

The sadowick saga however is interesting matter because it holds larger implications about the whole educational side of youtube and its potential to mislead people be it intentionally or unintentionally

If we don’t “make some noise” then why would NI be bothered to change anything?

That’s the point.

[Functional]

.. I'd surely hope that a user manual would clear up why the sine wave oscillators produce audible harmonics (nothing wrong with that if it's an inherent part of the synthesis..

Urs, the sine wave hasn't any harmonics when the filters are turned off. I suppose it's a kind of overdrive behavior.

It absolutely does.

OK, so, i set SPAN to go down to -120 dB now, and, there it is, starting at about -90 dB:

Massive_X_Sine_05.jpg

For any other synth, people would probably argue that it's not in the audible range, but, not on this one, it seems.

Wonder where it's coming from, though. I checked in 3 oscilloscopes, and, each of them seemed to display a perfect sine.

Gonna check with some other plugins now.

UNACCEPTABLE!

Anyway, whatever you're seeing there, I cannot see it myself after I tested. Since I have the Serum demo though, I decided to test it as well. The results are in the attachments. Both normalized to same loudness +-0.2db. I had to play a particular note (I think it was a sharp, and let the puns begin) because I could not get the aliasing artifacts to appear in every note with Massive X, only some of them (which is quite interesting, actually). Both behave in a very similar fashion; Serum has just a tiny bit more visible aliasing artifacts when playing at higher frequencies but Serum also has slightly (like -6 - -12db or so) less amplitude in them.

This is Serum:

serum.png

This is Massive X:

massive.png

I also tested square waves. Serum performed significantly better than MX in terms of aliasing. That is, if you play a C9.

But play a C3 and honestly telling the aliasing apart is pretty much impossible. So now I know; if I am going to ever make music with square waves and I happen to need a note at ninth octave, I should definitively pick Serum in case aliasing is a no-go. I have now developed as a producer.

The point is not that you have to play a C9.

The point is that the aliasing will be compounded due to modulations and distortions.

I went to the XFER websites and their marketing copy for Serum emphasizes that fact: high quality oscillators designed to leverage modulations.

I agree with Sadowick - we (those who have bought MX) as well as though who wanted to but didn’t shouldn’t rationalize deficiencies in an expensive “next gen” synth. Instead, we should make these issues known. Having watched all of Sadowick’s videos, I come to the conclusion that he is a very respectful, very thorough, and fairly knowledgeable person. He is not “trash” talking NI. He is pointing out some legitimate issues.

In my personal opinion I think MX can sound amazing. I can only hope that NI live up to their marketing copy and deliver on future updates.

Guess what? I also don't modulate anything with a C9 frequency. To be specific, the frequency of C9 is 8372hz aprox. That's 8372(!) cycles per second!

What in the flying f- are you going to use 8372 cycles per second? Amplitude modulation? Ring modulation? Filter modulation? Frequency modulation? I implore you to try out how all of that will sound like. It's all going to sound like shit, regardless of whenever there's -100db components in the signal that will, god forbid, compound it.

I'll be straight witchu dawg, I don't really think you have much experience in music production if you think that there exists a practical usecase for having 8372 cycles a second.

But if you think to the contrary, then please do explain me how can it be so important to have the option for modulating with signals that run at 8372hz and if it is so important to do that, why aren't we criticizing Serum for giving LFO's with only 100hz cap on them?

[realtrance]

My bad, I thought this thread was about Massive X, not sadowick.

Enjoy your conversation; there’s a reason I rarely participate here.

I agree.
I think people are jumping all over Sadowick with the cringey schoolyard-level insults because they want to boost themselves up, be part of the in-crowd, be seen in a good light by their peers etc. To do this they pick on the outsider, the different person and bully them and ostracise them. You'll notice of course that Sadowick hasn't posted much at all and yet people are still talking about him, slagging him off and saying the same things over and over again.

It's sickening. It's basically a mini version of the same ugly human behaviour that drives a lot of xenophobia, racism and right wing ideology.

Yeah I jumped down his throat at first because I thought he was trying to deflect the thread to himself, you properly called me to task, I apologized, The End.

But no. Sigh.

[perpetual3]

Urs, the sine wave hasn't any harmonics when the filters are turned off. I suppose it's a kind of overdrive behavior.

It absolutely does.

OK, so, i set SPAN to go down to -120 dB now, and, there it is, starting at about -90 dB:

Massive_X_Sine_05.jpg

For any other synth, people would probably argue that it's not in the audible range, but, not on this one, it seems.

Wonder where it's coming from, though. I checked in 3 oscilloscopes, and, each of them seemed to display a perfect sine.

Gonna check with some other plugins now.

UNACCEPTABLE!

Anyway, whatever you're seeing there, I cannot see it myself after I tested. Since I have the Serum demo though, I decided to test it as well. The results are in the attachments. Both normalized to same loudness +-0.2db. I had to play a particular note (I think it was a sharp, and let the puns begin) because I could not get the aliasing artifacts to appear in every note with Massive X, only some of them (which is quite interesting, actually). Both behave in a very similar fashion; Serum has just a tiny bit more visible aliasing artifacts when playing at higher frequencies but Serum also has slightly (like -6 - -12db or so) less amplitude in them.

This is Serum:

serum.png

This is Massive X:

massive.png

I also tested square waves. Serum performed significantly better than MX in terms of aliasing. That is, if you play a C9.

But play a C3 and honestly telling the aliasing apart is pretty much impossible. So now I know; if I am going to ever make music with square waves and I happen to need a note at ninth octave, I should definitively pick Serum in case aliasing is a no-go. I have now developed as a producer.

The point is not that you have to play a C9.

The point is that the aliasing will be compounded due to modulations and distortions.

I went to the XFER websites and their marketing copy for Serum emphasizes that fact: high quality oscillators designed to leverage modulations.

I agree with Sadowick - we (those who have bought MX) as well as though who wanted to but didn’t shouldn’t rationalize deficiencies in an expensive “next gen” synth. Instead, we should make these issues known. Having watched all of Sadowick’s videos, I come to the conclusion that he is a very respectful, very thorough, and fairly knowledgeable person. He is not “trash” talking NI. He is pointing out some legitimate issues.

In my personal opinion I think MX can sound amazing. I can only hope that NI live up to their marketing copy and deliver on future updates.

Guess what? I also don't modulate anything with a C9 frequency. To be specific, the frequency of C9 is 8372hz aprox. That's 8372(!) cycles per second!

What in the flying f- are you going to use 8372 cycles per second? Amplitude modulation? Ring modulation? Filter modulation? Frequency modulation? I implore you to try out how all of that will sound like. It's all going to sound like shit, regardless of whenever there's -100db components in the signal that will, god forbid, compound it.

I'll be straight witchu dawg, I don't really think you have much experience in music production if you think that there exists a practical usecase for having 8372 cycles a second.

But if you think to the contrary, then please do explain me how can it be so important to have the option for modulating with signals that run at 8372hz and if it is so important to do that, why aren't we criticizing Serum for giving LFO's with only 100hz cap on them?

I can guarantee that I have more experience than you do, for better or for worse.

Functional, you’re missing the point. The point is that it’s there and it doesn’t have to be. The point is that those artefacts could reveal themselves before 8000+ hz. The point is is that’s it’s an unnecessary limitation. Whatever issues Serum has do not somehow justify MX issues.

I’ve made some of the most amazing sounds using MX, really inspiring and I would say even changing the the music I make as a result. But my enthusiasm for the synth and it’s sounds doesn’t motivate me to rationalize and justify what I see as flaws and shortcomings (especially considering NI’s own marketing, alternatives, and price). If anything, I would agree that NI should be held to a very high standard. I see that as a sign of respect for the synth and the company.

[Functional]

Tbh it's not any alleged aliasing that people should be bothered about, it's the lack of basic features and functionality in a so-called next generation flagship synth. The video by Composing Gloves linked earlier was bang on.

Most of us are pretty much in agreement that there's lots of stuff currently that's missing and that's needed pronto. Midi learn and user manual for example. There's just not much of a point in discussing on a matter that we all agree on, now is there? It's not like we can set up a plan to fix it.

The sadowick saga however is interesting matter because it holds larger implications about the whole educational side of youtube and its potential to mislead people be it intentionally or unintentionally

If we don’t “make some noise” then why would NI be bothered to change anything?

That’s the point.

ED pretty much gave an unofficial statement that the release is rushed and we should expect updates. Not sure honestly what you think you would achieve by making some noise, I mean, I assume ye ain't the ghost of good ol' Dale Earnhardt?

So personally I'm just going to wait and see what the updates bring and I really don't think making some noise on this matter really has any impact at all in this current stage. I'm somewhat certain that the devs have their list of priorities for what they ought to finish first etc. Once they are done with that, then perhaps it's a good time to look at what is actually missing and what should be discussed about. They can't make everything happen at once and they probably want to roll out smaller updates first that just add the certain key things that are missing (such as the midi learn mode)

Hell, having lots of fun with Massive X as it is right now: https://picosong.com/wNa8A/

[chk071]

Tbh it's not any alleged aliasing that people should be bothered about, it's the lack of basic features and functionality in a so-called next generation flagship synth. The video by Composing Gloves linked earlier was bang on.

Most of us are pretty much in agreement that there's lots of stuff currently that's missing and that's needed pronto. Midi learn and user manual for example. There's just not much of a point in discussing on a matter that we all agree on, now is there? It's not like we can set up a plan to fix it.

The sadowick saga however is interesting matter because it holds larger implications about the whole educational side of youtube and its potential to mislead people be it intentionally or unintentionally

If we don’t “make some noise” then why would NI be bothered to change anything?

That’s the point.

The myth that users pinch developers about things they need to add or improve seems to be pretty widespread. Ask a developer, and he will surely tell you that they know all those things already. It's rather about priority, and, especially, also whether it fits their design or not.

[realtrance]

I will disagree with most here and say I like the clean, simple interface in MX, and would regret seeing it festooned with numbers and pop ups and markings. There really isn't anything that's unintuitive in it, as long as you use your ears. The layout informs you of everything you need to know. The de-emphasis on preset browsing says, "make your own." I wouldn't want it changed at all. Even the envelope images! I think it's elegant, forward-looking interface design, actually.

Ultimately, as to the aliasing thing, the only place I could possibly imagine it affecting anything is in trying to do pure, additive synthesis - and even then, MX is better than the cathedral organs J.S Bach used. Good enough, in other words, for the likes of me.

And for additive you use Razor anyways. Different instruments for different purposes.

[Functional]

Functional, you’re missing the point. The point is that it’s there and it doesn’t have to be. The point is that those artefacts could reveal themselves before 8000+ hz. The point is is that’s it’s an unnecessary limitation. Whatever issues Serum has do not somehow justify MX issues.

See, I really hope you don't have more experience than me because you certainly have learned far less then. So, aliasing artifacts will always be there. Doesn't matter what synth you use; if it's not additive and doesn't work in the same principle as additive synths do, you'll have aliasing. The closer you get to the nyqvist frequency, the stronger it will be, because on the average, harmonics that are closer to the fundamental are also stronger. So if it's technically speaking sixth harmonic that reaches the nyqvist frequency, it's much, much less pronounced than first or second harmonic getting mirrored.

Those artifacts don't really reveal or unreveal themselves, they'll always be there, just less and less of them.

And whenever it's unnecessary limitation or not is up to NI, not you. What you seem to be ignoring _entirely_ is that there is a cost in CPU. These modulators work polyphonically, so the cost will increase even further with polyphonic patches. And more importantly: it's not an issue with normal LFO frequencies, like, at all.

And you're probably going to be the only person on planet that would care whenever the mod LFO's had band limiting or not

[kvr235]

Latest version of Reaper here.

Somehow Massive X feels a lot more sluggish and CPU intensive on my machine than other comparable synths.

I just made a test project, and with the same unison settings Massive X uses up ~ twice as much CPU as Massive 1. And even 3x more than Serum.

When I disable GPU processing for Reaper, it just becomes unusable, so that seems to be crucial in a way.

Is there any settings I might try that would help reduce CPU usage? Lots of people report it being so CPU friendly, I'm starting to suspect there's something going on specific to my setup.

no one?
should i post this somewhere else or write ni about this?

[pixel85]

What next ..loot boxes in a Synth with day 1 dlc?

You mean 'surprise mechanics'? but everybody loves them

[perpetual3]

Tbh it's not any alleged aliasing that people should be bothered about, it's the lack of basic features and functionality in a so-called next generation flagship synth. The video by Composing Gloves linked earlier was bang on.

Most of us are pretty much in agreement that there's lots of stuff currently that's missing and that's needed pronto. Midi learn and user manual for example. There's just not much of a point in discussing on a matter that we all agree on, now is there? It's not like we can set up a plan to fix it.

The sadowick saga however is interesting matter because it holds larger implications about the whole educational side of youtube and its potential to mislead people be it intentionally or unintentionally

If we don’t “make some noise” then why would NI be bothered to change anything?

That’s the point.

The myth that users pinch developers about things they need to add or improve seems to be pretty widespread. Ask a developer, and he will surely tell you that they know all those things already. It's rather about priority, and, especially, also whether it fits their design or not.

It’s kind of how it works across most industries, though. If enough people complain - and it affects sales - then companies are motivated to make changes. It’s not a myth at all.

[vurt]

if the lfos dont do 1million hertz! then i will destroy the wooooooorld!

muhahaha!

[chk071]

Tbh it's not any alleged aliasing that people should be bothered about, it's the lack of basic features and functionality in a so-called next generation flagship synth. The video by Composing Gloves linked earlier was bang on.

Most of us are pretty much in agreement that there's lots of stuff currently that's missing and that's needed pronto. Midi learn and user manual for example. There's just not much of a point in discussing on a matter that we all agree on, now is there? It's not like we can set up a plan to fix it.

The sadowick saga however is interesting matter because it holds larger implications about the whole educational side of youtube and its potential to mislead people be it intentionally or unintentionally

If we don’t “make some noise” then why would NI be bothered to change anything?

That’s the point.

The myth that users pinch developers about things they need to add or improve seems to be pretty widespread. Ask a developer, and he will surely tell you that they know all those things already. It's rather about priority, and, especially, also whether it fits their design or not.

It’s kind of how it works across most industries, though. If enough people complain - and it affects sales - then companies are motivated to make changes. It’s not a myth at all.

It would be very unfortunate, because, a handful of people doesn't represent the user base. It represents a handful of people.

NI use data metrics anyway. And, i'm pretty sure they get a much better picture by reports from their beta testers, or somehow else affiliated people. That also saves them from having to deal with ill-informed Youtube influencers and the likes.

[neodeavid]

Tbh it's not any alleged aliasing that people should be bothered about, it's the lack of basic features and functionality in a so-called next generation flagship synth. The video by Composing Gloves linked earlier was bang on.

Most of us are pretty much in agreement that there's lots of stuff currently that's missing and that's needed pronto. Midi learn and user manual for example. There's just not much of a point in discussing on a matter that we all agree on, now is there? It's not like we can set up a plan to fix it.

The sadowick saga however is interesting matter because it holds larger implications about the whole educational side of youtube and its potential to mislead people be it intentionally or unintentionally

If we don’t “make some noise” then why would NI be bothered to change anything?

That’s the point.

The myth that users pinch developers about things they need to add or improve seems to be pretty widespread. Ask a developer, and he will surely tell you that they know all those things already. It's rather about priority, and, especially, also whether it fits their design or not.

It is not a myth at all, it always depends on whether the developer takes his clients into seriously.
For example, Rapid Parawave, KV331 SynthMaster, U-HE.

They are some of those who take their clients seriously.