The "NEW" Plugin Alliance?

[jochicago]

In a subscription model, customers are at the mercy of the seller. PA could raise subscription fee at any time, leaving you with the choice of getting out (empty handed) or paying up.

That is 100% going to happen, it's already prefaced in the emails. They didn't guarantee locked in at $15, they guaranteed locked in at 40% off the retail price, whatever that price is when it changes.

Think about it, they are releasing like 10 new plugins this summer alone. By this time next year they'll be advertising that the subscription carries 120+ plugins, so the price has to go up.

I think this thread did come up with a reasonable solution. From reading everyone's opinions, seems that the "you pick X" model would solve most of the problems. If people can pick 20 plugins they want it helps reduce the cost, addresses the fact that nobody needs the entire catalogue, and lets loyal customers pick plugins they don't yet own.

Think about this, how many people here would object to:
Pick 10 plugins $5 /m
Pick 20 plugins $9 /m
Entire collection $19 /m

[Dip200]

Do you guys know if Slate Digital and Kush Audio do less sales since they went subscription ? I think so but maybe I*m wrong.

There is nothing mentioned anymore about the monthly vouchers in the "How does the new PA work". Since PA is now eager to get monthly subsribers, it would make sence to stop the sales or make them less attractive.

[reggie1979]

@post before:

Well it would be more palatable but I still wouldn't do it. PA makes some fine plugs but I'm covered

[perpetual3]

Thanks but i tried these. No really i did. It's not just pan shift or phase rotation. Or m/s delay to add spatial effect.

Actually i never tried Matthew Lane's Stereodelta thanks for pointing it out.

Yeah, TMT is not a stereoizer by any means. Take my approach of using a stereo EQ and adding slightly different EQ/gain settings to each channel. When you pop these into Plugin Doctor, you can see that's exactly what's happening with TMT (even if under the hood they're accomplishing it via other means). Each stereo instance of a TMT plugin will have slightly different gain levels and EQ center points between the two channels. And on mono channels, EQ'ing 400hz by -3db on one TMT channel, might result in a change at 380hz by -3.3db on another. Like a slight randomization effect is being applied each time you click on a new channel. This is totally normal in hardware where the tolerances will cause slight difference and pan pots to move around. That's all TMT is.

All this does is create a side signal because of the phase differences - exactly what stereo/spatial processors do, only with more control and less gambling.

Indeed. And that's different from what TMT does how?

Because the convo is:

TMT is not like spatial processors.

TMT is this stereo EQ technique

The stereo technique is exactly like spatial processors.

So I agree that it’s confusing.

Does TMT make things wide? Yes. Do stereo processors? Yes. Does TMT alter the frequency between channels? Yes. Particularly when it comes to the center frequencies of EQs and the amount of gain applied! Do stereo processors? No, not really. A stereo processor is not really designed to result in EQ changes even if phase cancellation will have to result in some (at least when collapsed to mono). Does EQ'ing one side of a signal differently than the other side mess with phase? Yes. Is that the same as a stereo processor? Well, sort of (it messes with phase and can will result in a wider sound like a stereo processor), but not really.

So that's my distinction. TMT isn't slapping a stereo widening effect on things under the hood, but it is resulting in different gain between channels, different EQ center points between channels, maybe even different THD, and all that does result in stereo widening. They're related tasks, and similar end results, but if you want to simulate TMT, I think my approach much better approximates what's happening in the Bx plugins compared to just using a stereo widener.

Thank you! Clears that up!

[mgw38]

Do you guys know if Slate Digital and Kush Audio do less sales since they went subscription ? I think so but maybe I*m wrong.

There is nothing mentioned anymore about the monthly vouchers in the "How does the new PA work". Since PA is now eager to get monthly subsribers, it would make sence to stop the sales or make them less attractive.

What a subscription does is it makes you more aware of what you are actually using. I had a Kush subscription for a while but then noticed that I was only ever using one of their plugins. So I cancelled the subscription and bought that plugin. If a developer does not offer a subscription you are more likely to get into an collecting mode whenever there are sales.

[perpetual3]

Thanks but i tried these. No really i did. It's not just pan shift or phase rotation. Or m/s delay to add spatial effect.

Actually i never tried Matthew Lane's Stereodelta thanks for pointing it out.

Yeah, TMT is not a stereoizer by any means. Take my approach of using a stereo EQ and adding slightly different EQ/gain settings to each channel. When you pop these into Plugin Doctor, you can see that's exactly what's happening with TMT (even if under the hood they're accomplishing it via other means). Each stereo instance of a TMT plugin will have slightly different gain levels and EQ center points between the two channels. And on mono channels, EQ'ing 400hz by -3db on one TMT channel, might result in a change at 380hz by -3.3db on another. Like a slight randomization effect is being applied each time you click on a new channel. This is totally normal in hardware where the tolerances will cause slight difference and pan pots to move around. That's all TMT is.

All this does is create a side signal because of the phase differences - exactly what stereo/spatial processors do, only with more control and less gambling.

Indeed. And that's different from what TMT does how?

Because the convo is:

TMT is not like spatial processors.

TMT is this stereo EQ technique

The stereo technique is exactly like spatial processors.

So I agree that it’s confusing.

Does TMT make things wide? Yes. Do stereo processors? Yes. Does TMT alter the frequency between channels? Yes. Particularly when it comes to the center frequencies of EQs and the amount of gain applied! Do stereo processors? No, not really. A stereo processor is not really designed to result in EQ changes even if phase cancellation will have to result in some (at least when collapsed to mono). Does EQ'ing one side of a signal differently than the other side mess with phase? Yes. Is that the same as a stereo processor? Well, sort of (it messes with phase and can will result in a wider sound like a stereo processor), but not really.

So that's my distinction. TMT isn't slapping a stereo widening effect on things under the hood, but it is resulting in different gain between channels, different EQ center points between channels, maybe even different THD, and all that does result in stereo widening. They're related tasks, and similar end results, but if you want to simulate TMT, I think my approach much better approximates what's happening in the Bx plugins compared to just using a stereo widener.

Easy to do something like this with Pro-Q 3 or Volcano?

[waltercruz]

IMO Waves CLA MixBucket have much better EQ and compression. The one from BX sounds to me not different than native DAW plugins: flat and mediocre.

can't speak about CLA MixHub, but when I compared bx_console with the old waves SSL, I needed to drive the input really high on bx_console to get the same behaviour (+10db). I compared it through Plugin Doctor. With this boost in input, the compressor has similar behaviour to the waves channel strip.

[sl1200mk2]

Do you guys know if Slate Digital and Kush Audio do less sales since they went subscription ? I think so but maybe I*m wrong.

EDIT: I read someone else's reply and it made me rethink your comment. I'm not sure if you meant "sales" as in overall sales/volume or sales as in discount. Re-reading, I now think you mean discount which makes my reply irrelevant. Leaving it anyway though.

Only pure speculation on my part, but I don't think that's the case at all. In fact, since more companies are going the subscription route, I think that says it's (as far as the overall market is concerned) a successful model. Both Slate and Kush have continued to release new plugins under the subscription. Especially Slate. I'd think if it wasn't generating more revenue for them they'd have scaled back with new releases or at least rethought the model. Neither has announced or raised prices with new plugins which says a lot too.

I'm pretty surprised the 'rent to own' model hasn't become a lot more prevalent though, especially for the vendors using iLok since the risk is so much lower. I prefer buying plugins vs. renting them, but sometimes it does make sense for the subscription. Slate has a lot of great plugins, so I subbed. Had FabFilter offered it I'd probably have done it as well, but ultimately had to hold off for a big sale.

Time will tell what the market and consumers want. I'm well beyond 'peak plugins' at this point, so something has to be pretty fantastic and well priced for me to bite. The PA offer is a pass for me as I bought what I wanted 2nd hand or via the crazy sales.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Does TMT make things wide? Yes. Do stereo processors? Yes. Does TMT alter the frequency between channels? Yes. Particularly when it comes to the center frequencies of EQs and the amount of gain applied! Do stereo processors? No, not really. A stereo processor is not really designed to result in EQ changes even if phase cancellation will have to result in some (at least when collapsed to mono). Does EQ'ing one side of a signal differently than the other side mess with phase? Yes. Is that the same as a stereo processor? Well, sort of (it messes with phase and can will result in a wider sound like a stereo processor), but not really.

So that's my distinction. TMT isn't slapping a stereo widening effect on things under the hood, but it is resulting in different gain between channels, different EQ center points between channels, maybe even different THD, and all that does result in stereo widening. They're related tasks, and similar end results, but if you want to simulate TMT, I think my approach much better approximates what's happening in the Bx plugins compared to just using a stereo widener.

Easy to do something like this with Pro-Q 3 or Volcano?

Not sure, don't own Pro-Q and don't use Volcano. I'm sure Pro-Q can do it, just setup a stereo EQ and use slightly different values for the left side and the right side, maybe tweak the overall gain on one side a little bit (talking .3 db or so on the high-end). But is there a way to quickly make random adjustments to both channels simultaneously? That's the part I don't know about. Would be cool if more developers starting adding parameter randomization within set tolerances (like: "randomize the paramaters within 5% of their current settings").

In terms of other EQ's that can do it, there's an undocumented feature in TDR SlickEQ M where double-clicking the SlickEQ logo will result in slight changes to the stereo balance of each individual band. That's like halfway to what TMT does. You can set those values manually of course, but double-clicking the logo will random offsets. That particular feature only impacts the gain I believe, whereas TMT also offsets the center frequency the individual EQ bands (so it's not just gain).

From the SlickEQ M manual on how the stereo balance works:

The lower text slider controls the stereo balance of the band. This is technically equivalent to a dual mono EQ having different gain values for left and right. Weighting follows equal power pan law. In addition, a specialized phase compensation network prevents cases having contradictory intensity-stereo vs time-stereo. The stereo rectangle indicates the amount and type of stereo manipulation, double clicking it resets both width and balance controls to zero.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Some of the TMT changes to frequencies are pretty big too from what I recall. You may think you're cutting 1khz on one channel, but that might be closer to 550hz on another and 890hz on another. So if you combine two random channels for TMT, the offsets may be pretty wide.

Best bet: load up the SSL Channel E in Plugin Doctor and really mess around with it to get a feel for how TMT works and how each channel ends up slightly different. Once you see what's happening, it's not hard to replicate with other EQ's/workflow if you have the patience. The nice thing Brainworks does is make it easy by wrapping it all into a button you can press to quickly randomize and audition these slight little randomizations.

[perpetual3]

Maybe it might be possible to add these randomization changes with a max for live device...

[Bouroki]

Thanks but i tried these. No really i did. It's not just pan shift or phase rotation. Or m/s delay to add spatial effect.

Actually i never tried Matthew Lane's Stereodelta thanks for pointing it out.

Yeah, TMT is not a stereoizer by any means. Take my approach of using a stereo EQ and adding slightly different EQ/gain settings to each channel. When you pop these into Plugin Doctor, you can see that's exactly what's happening with TMT (even if under the hood they're accomplishing it via other means). Each stereo instance of a TMT plugin will have slightly different gain levels and EQ center points between the two channels. And on mono channels, EQ'ing 400hz by -3db on one TMT channel, might result in a change at 380hz by -3.3db on another. Like a slight randomization effect is being applied each time you click on a new channel. This is totally normal in hardware where the tolerances will cause slight difference and pan pots to move around. That's all TMT is.

All this does is create a side signal because of the phase differences - exactly what stereo/spatial processors do, only with more control and less gambling.

Indeed. And that's different from what TMT does how?

Because the convo is:

TMT is not like spatial processors.

TMT is this stereo EQ technique

The stereo technique is exactly like spatial processors.

So I agree that it’s confusing.

Does TMT make things wide? Yes. Do stereo processors? Yes. Does TMT alter the frequency between channels? Yes. Particularly when it comes to the center frequencies of EQs and the amount of gain applied! Do stereo processors? No, not really. A stereo processor is not really designed to result in EQ changes even if phase cancellation will have to result in some (at least when collapsed to mono). Does EQ'ing one side of a signal differently than the other side mess with phase? Yes. Is that the same as a stereo processor? Well, sort of (it messes with phase and can will result in a wider sound like a stereo processor), but not really.

So that's my distinction. TMT isn't slapping a stereo widening effect on things under the hood, but it is resulting in different gain between channels, different EQ center points between channels, maybe even different THD, and all that does result in stereo widening. They're related tasks, and similar end results, but if you want to simulate TMT, I think my approach much better approximates what's happening in the Bx plugins compared to just using a stereo widener.

We're not in disagreement. I just presented the controlled, predictable "ITB" way to spread out a mono kick/snare etc... True, a spatial processor alone won't alter the EQ, but you'd be EQing anyway with a dedicated EQ plugin. In my view, EQ should be for EQ i.e. tone shaping, compression for dynamics manipulation, and spatial processing for spatial processing... that is all

[dionenoid]

Do you guys know if Slate Digital and Kush Audio do less sales since they went subscription ? I think so but maybe I*m wrong.

Slate did less sales but is still doing a few, Kush is still doing a lot of sales.

Most of the other brands that do subscriptions (and there's a lot) didn't really change their sales tactics.

[escalona]

Big Lolz... Di*k Ulrich has spent the whole Tuesday morning banning people from the PA-audiophile (almost sounds like pedophile) and erasing comments. I don't have/use facebook, but at least 12 people I used to connect here and gearslutz have been banned from the group after sharing their discontent and their posts completely erased.

[reggie1979]

Another control freak. I'm surprised he's not over here getting into it with everyone.