2CAudio Precedence | 1.5 Sneak Peak available to customers

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
User avatar
Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2562 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Post Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:14 am

Winstontaneous wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:19 pm
Overall design concept is very appealing but the menu text looks way too small.

thanks for the feedback. :tu:

We actually have user adjustable font scaling now. For example here, is the minimum, midpoint, and max font scaling:


Full Res:

https://2caudio.com/sitecontent/product ... llFont.png
https://2caudio.com/sitecontent/product ... idFont.png
https://2caudio.com/sitecontent/product ... geFont.png

Image
Image
Image

the two previous examples were using something very close to the minimum font size. does the mid point example here look cool to you regarding font size?

The max example, is generally a little too big and looks "clunky" IMHO, but we allow it to help anyone who may have vision impairment.

personally, I like the look of using very large gui sizes with min font scaling, as it allows the design to take on some modernist, minimalist, lots-of-empty-space kind of vibe. So we allow the min scaling to get pretty small also, but it definitely works best at larger GUI sizes -- like if using a 4K monitor or larger and GUI sizes of 1440 or larger. (first screen shots were using GUI size 1440*1440, if you click on the full res link you can see the real size. second shots I use 960*960 GUI size)


if you click on this midPoint example, and view its actual size (not resized by the forum) how's the fontSize for you?

https://2caudio.com/sitecontent/product ... idFont.png

jens
KVRAF
19611 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia

Re: 2CAudio Precedence | 1.5 Sneak Peak available to customers

Post Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:43 am

That's all really nice! :-D But I'm still hoping for a mode with a minimized top and bottom. :-)

jens
KVRAF
19611 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia

Re: 2CAudio Precedence | 1.5 Sneak Peak available to customers

Post Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:49 am

Oh, I just realized that the renaming is case-sentitive even though it shows the names in all-caps. That needs to change in either direction.

User avatar
Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2562 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Re: 2CAudio Precedence | 1.5 Sneak Peak available to customers

Post Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:26 am

jens wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:49 am
Oh, I just realized that the renaming is case-sentitive even though it shows the names in all-caps. That needs to change in either direction.
Yes, probably true. Good point. :tu:

jbraner
KVRian
979 posts since 8 Jan, 2003

Re: 2CAudio Precedence | 1.5 Sneak Peak available to customers

Post Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:11 am

Hi,
I'm just finally getting to trying the new beta Precedence and Breeze 2. I'm just getting my head around the links and multi instance editing - this is cool!!

My question is this:
What is this setting on Breeze 2.5?
Image

I don't see a Breeze 2.5 manual, so I can't find it.
Thanks.

DavidCarlyon
KVRist
459 posts since 17 Mar, 2018

Re: 2CAudio Precedence | 1.5 Sneak Peak available to customers

Post Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:13 pm

Finally bought breeze - i have most of the best reverbs (apart from illusion) and i have to say breeze is one of the most impressive. Even compared to other 2c products it stands up really well. At first i thought it was just a kind of 'stripped down' version of their other stuff, but it seems more sophisticated in many ways.
Can't wait for the new updates...really hope to get precedence before sale ends.

One thing i would say - i always have ot check my corellometer when using precedence demo, as sometimes i end up with various frequencies being way out of phase. Don't know if its how i am using it, but will try again.
This is shaping up to be a really powerful combo. Great work

jbraner
KVRian
979 posts since 8 Jan, 2003

Re: 2CAudio Precedence | 1.5 Sneak Peak available to customers

Post Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:57 am

Everything is working great here. I tried making the Precedence screen a little bigger, as it's getting a little crowded (about 15-20 instances).
One thing I would say - make sure you get the two little dots when you're linking a Precedence instance to a Breeze 2 instance. I missed this last night, and a few didn't link, as the instance names have to be case-sensitive exactly the same ;)
There was a suggestion earlier if the instance ID could be inherited from the DAW track name - that would be really handy!

I also second (or third?) the suggestions to "send current settings" to all members of the group - without having to "change something".

Also - did someone mention that you can name the groups? I'm getting groups 1-8, but don't see a way to name them.

Without meaning to sound negative - this is a little time consuming by the time you link up all your instances, and type in the names correctly etc. It's much easier to just put Breeze 2 on a buss and set up sends ;-)
I guess we'll have to come up with labour saving strategies ;)
It's not that easy to set up templates, as you won't really know how many tracks you'll have, how they'll want to be grouped, instance names etc.

I'm looking forward to the "Official" release! ;)

Hez
KVRian
647 posts since 10 Dec, 2013

Re: 2CAudio Precedence | 1.5 Sneak Peak available to customers

Post Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:44 am

DavidCarlyon wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:13 pm
Finally bought breeze - i have most of the best reverbs (apart from illusion) and i have to say breeze is one of the most impressive. Even compared to other 2c products it stands up really well. At first i thought it was just a kind of 'stripped down' version of their other stuff, but it seems more sophisticated in many ways.
Can't wait for the new updates...really hope to get precedence before sale ends.

One thing i would say - i always have ot check my corellometer when using precedence demo, as sometimes i end up with various frequencies being way out of phase. Don't know if its how i am using it, but will try again.
This is shaping up to be a really powerful combo. Great work
I also find it quite random whether or not a 'generic' Precedence instance will be mono compatible or not. Seems hugely dependent on input material - the same settings will sometimes be perfectly fine with one sound source but super phasey with another source. I guess once it's linked to Breeze there's a lot of different parameters interacting. I've had to check things in mono a lot more frequently since I started using it in projects regularly, though this has probably benefited my production so not really complaining ha!

Andrew, there's one thing I'm missing with this new paradigm which is being able to post-process the reverb channel independently. I make techno and often end up doing quite 'extreme' processing to a wet reverb signal only (lots of notches and EQ adjustments, occasionally some fairly hefty compression or distortion for effect). I'm cool leaving the extreme compression + distortion to non-Precedence'd reverb channels (doing it the old school way), but I've found myself really missing more control over EQ of the wet signal - one filter is not really enough for the kind of reverb shaping which I sometimes desire. I'm guessing there's no way for me to treat the wet signal separately in my DAW when using Precedence + Breeze inline, given that there isn't really a 'wet signal' at all anymore?

Is there any chance of adding a second EQ filter to Breeze? I think that would get me there in most cases - often I roll off the highs or lows then just want to pull a tiny bit more weight out with a notch/bell somewhere.

Winstontaneous
KVRAF
1610 posts since 15 Feb, 2006 from Berkeley, CA

Re: 2CAudio Precedence | 1.5 Sneak Peak available to customers

Post Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:39 am

Hez wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:44 am
Is there any chance of adding a second EQ filter to Breeze? I think that would get me there in most cases - often I roll off the highs or lows then just want to pull a tiny bit more weight out with a notch/bell somewhere.
Maybe not precisely what you're looking for, but have you tried the Bandpass and Tilt/Cut Tilt Filter modes in both EQ and Damping? Not the same as a separate filter (I love how Exponential Audio has 3 filters for Input, ER, LR) but more versatile than I woulda thunk.
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User avatar
Harry_HH
KVRAF
3744 posts since 4 Aug, 2006 from Helsinki

Re: 2CAudio Precedence | 1.5 Sneak Peak available to customers

Post Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:46 am

Is this Breeze or Precedence thread?

BTW, Precedence ver. 1.5 beta includes a bug, does not install, at least not to Win 10/Live.

User avatar
Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2562 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Re: 2CAudio Precedence | 1.5 Sneak Peak available to customers

Post Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:01 pm

jbraner wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:11 am
I'm just finally getting to trying the new beta Precedence and Breeze 2. I'm just getting my head around the links and multi instance editing - this is cool!!
Thanks! We think it's extremely cool too! :tu:

I'll move the Breeze questions to the Breeze thread.

User avatar
Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2562 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Re: 2CAudio Precedence | 1.5 Sneak Peak available to customers

Post Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:04 pm

Harry_HH wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:46 am
Is this Breeze or Precedence thread?
Good question. I'll move/answer the Breeze questions to/in the Breeze thread.

but there is a lot of overlap now, so some things are inevitably appropriate in either thread...
Harry_HH wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:46 am
BTW, Precedence ver. 1.5 beta includes a bug, does not install, at least not to Win 10/Live.
As I understand this is limited specifically to cases where people have used custom install paths in some cases. But Denis has explored and fixed this already. It will be available in the next build. :tu:

DavidCarlyon
KVRist
459 posts since 17 Mar, 2018

Re: 2CAudio Precedence | 1.5 Sneak Peak available to customers

Post Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:23 pm

Hez wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:44 am
DavidCarlyon wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:13 pm
Finally bought breeze - i have most of the best reverbs (apart from illusion) and i have to say breeze is one of the most impressive. Even compared to other 2c products it stands up really well. At first i thought it was just a kind of 'stripped down' version of their other stuff, but it seems more sophisticated in many ways.
Can't wait for the new updates...really hope to get precedence before sale ends.

One thing i would say - i always have ot check my corellometer when using precedence demo, as sometimes i end up with various frequencies being way out of phase. Don't know if its how i am using it, but will try again.
This is shaping up to be a really powerful combo. Great work
I also find it quite random whether or not a 'generic' Precedence instance will be mono compatible or not. Seems hugely dependent on input material - the same settings will sometimes be perfectly fine with one sound source but super phasey with another source. I guess once it's linked to Breeze there's a lot of different parameters interacting. I've had to check things in mono a lot more frequently since I started using it in projects regularly, though this has probably benefited my production so not really complaining ha!

Andrew, there's one thing I'm missing with this new paradigm which is being able to post-process the reverb channel independently. I make techno and often end up doing quite 'extreme' processing to a wet reverb signal only (lots of notches and EQ adjustments, occasionally some fairly hefty compression or distortion for effect). I'm cool leaving the extreme compression + distortion to non-Precedence'd reverb channels (doing it the old school way), but I've found myself really missing more control over EQ of the wet signal - one filter is not really enough for the kind of reverb shaping which I sometimes desire. I'm guessing there's no way for me to treat the wet signal separately in my DAW when using Precedence + Breeze inline, given that there isn't really a 'wet signal' at all anymore?

Is there any chance of adding a second EQ filter to Breeze? I think that would get me there in most cases - often I roll off the highs or lows then just want to pull a tiny bit more weight out with a notch/bell somewhere.

Yeah this is my experience. I am using a corellometer constantly because sometimes even when the overall signal is in phase, parts of the spectrum are way out. It doesn’t happen with breeze on its own - with precedence. Maybe this is a problem inherent with using a plugin that makes each side a little different? I imagine it would need a whole load of coding to make sure that every area of the spectrum stays in phase whilst also adding difference. Would be VERY cool though. Would solve an age old problem of trying to add enough space whilst maintaining perfect mono compatibility

User avatar
Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2562 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Re: 2CAudio Precedence | 1.5 Sneak Peak available to customers

Post Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:15 pm

DavidCarlyon wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:13 pm
One thing i would say - i always have ot check my corellometer when using precedence demo, as sometimes i end up with various frequencies being way out of phase. Don't know if its how i am using it, but will try again.
This is shaping up to be a really powerful combo. Great work
First some notes about mono-compatiblity:

---------------------------
1)
---------------------------

Most mono compatibility meters and things such as the "corellometer" are not actually really completely accurate for the explicit task of measuring mono-compatability. What I mean by this is simply most of these meters are normalized in such a way that gain differences between channels are ignored and only the absolute phase difference is reported. Users will look at such meters and see a strong negative value and panic, but often the result is actually NOT particularly problematic.

If you have a full scale sine wav in the left channel and an identical sine wav int he right channel, such a coloration meter will show +1.0. If you sum them together using 0.5 * (L + R) you get a result that is perfectly identical to either/both input channel.

If you have a full scale sine wav in the left channel and an 180 deg phase inverted sine wav in the right channel, such a coloration meter will show -1.0. If you sum them together using 0.5 * (L + R) you get perfect cancelation resulting in silence in the output. Of course this is a problem and this is something to panic about.

But, what if the left and right signals to NOT have the same gain? Let's say you reduce the right channel by 60dB due to applying some gain panning. Effectively you have have:

L = 1.0 * sin(x)
R = -0.001 * sin(x)

Your correlation meter still shows -1.0, and you panic. But it this situation really something to panic about? Is it really still not "mono compatible"?

If you sum the channels you have:

0.5 * (1.0 * sin(x) - 0.001 sin(x)) = 0.5 * 0.999 * sin(x) = 0.4995 * sin(x)

if you hard-pan the signal you will have:

0.5 * (1.0 * sin(x) - 0.000 sin(x)) = 0.5 * 1.0 * sin(x) = 0.5 * sin(x)

The correlation meter will show +1.0 for a hard pan signal, but -1.0 for an almost hard panned signal with phase inversion. Yet the summed result is almost identical.

In effect the correlation meter is not particularly useful in this case.

Correlation meters typically ignore the gain difference between the signals, yet this is VERY relevant information when considering true "mono-compatability". I am not overly convinced how useful they are for this task.

A MUCH better tool is the:

Goniometer/PhaseScope/VectorScope/Lissajous Vectorscope

such as:

Image

In such a meter "real problems" are easily found when the display starts to approach a horizontal line. If the display generally shows something that is at least slightly taller than it is wide, is not a problem.

---------------------------
2)
---------------------------

In electronic/dance/club/urban/bass music mono compatibility is mostly a concern in the bass range. Precedence retains full mono compatibility in almost any potential parameter settings in the bass range. If you work in these genres, you generally do not have to worry if that if you main concern.

---------------------------
3)
---------------------------

We would really advise to simply put a "mono-maker" plug on your master output and check the final mix in mono with your ears. Something is ALWAYS lost when summing to mono unless you are summing two signals are are identical, which means they are already effectively mono. A hard-panned signal will loose 6dB when summed to mono. A 90deg phase difference between channels will lose only 3dB when summed to mono. Generally well behaved phase difference between channels are not a large problem when summed to mono. Exactly 180 deg phase differences that are ALSO exactly the same gain in both channels are really what to be concerned about, and Precedence does not typically create this situation itself.

---------------------------
4)
---------------------------

we are considering making some kind of metering tool to help show what is and is not something to be concerned about in our estimation to help make these topics more intuitive. We are not yet completely satisfied with the various tools available on the market to check these sort of topics.

User avatar
Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2562 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Re: 2CAudio Precedence | 1.5 Sneak Peak available to customers

Post Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:23 pm

Hez wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:44 am
I also find it quite random whether or not a 'generic' Precedence instance will be mono compatible or not. Seems hugely dependent on input material - the same settings will sometimes be perfectly fine with one sound source but super phasey with another source. I guess once it's linked to Breeze there's a lot of different parameters interacting. I've had to check things in mono a lot more frequently since I started using it in projects regularly, though this has probably benefited my production so not really complaining ha!
Indeed these topics are VERY program/source dependent and indeed whatever else follows Precedence such as Breeze also effects the phase response to some degree.

The manual gets into these topics as they relate to Precedence in good detail:
Algorithm Mode

Precedence offers three different Algorithm Modes to suite the needs of various source sounds and target applications. The Algorithm Mode selection control is provided as a radio button control to the right of the Input Gain knob, with three options:

• β : Beta : the default mode providing the most specific positioning using a full set of psychoacoustic principals
• µ : Mu : an enhanced mono-compatibility mode
• ω : Omega : an enhanced diffusive mode with extra widening designed for synths and modern FX

Each mode is described in more detail below.

Tip: It is perfectly acceptable to mix and match Algorithm Modes in complex projects, particularly when working in modern musical styles. There are fewer rules when working with electronic music, compared to classical chamber music for example. You may find you like Beta Mode on drums, Mu Mode on vocals, and Omega mode on synths for example, or any other secret formula you come up with.

Algorithm Mode: Beta

Beta Mode is the default Alg Mode in Precedence. It uses a full suite of psychoacoustic principles to very specifically position source sounds within the stereo field. It makes full use of interaural time delays and other advanced time-based techniques to achieve the most precise positioning possible. It can be considered a pseudo-binaural mode; it utilizes the most universal aspects of binaural hearing without the limitations of traditional binaural signal processing techniques, and works equally well over both speakers and headphones. The Beta name and symbol on the GUI is a pneumonic to remind users that some binaural aspects are utilized to achieve its highly specific positioning abilities.

The Beta Mode targets an average phase correlation of 0%, which means some specific frequencies within the spectrum can have negative correlation while others will have positive correlation. The exact correlation of the complex signal coming out of Precedence is completely dependent on the frequency content of the input signal. On musical signals it is possible to end up with strong negative correlation with some combinations of input signal and parameter settings in Precedence. This is true particularly if the input signal happens to have a narrow frequency range. This changes drastically, even chaotically depending on the input signal, and even different notes from the same instrument may have drastically different results.

This behavior is completely accurate to the real physical world and the same phenomena are created by stereo microphone techniques that employ any form of spaced microphones. If there is any space whatsoever between multiple microphones there will be at least one frequency that is exactly 180 degrees out of phase when measured at these two distinct points in space. The distance between microphones, or ears, determine what frequencies are out of phase. This is how a sense of width is created. This is an innate aspect of the psychoacoustics of spatial hearing.

Care has been taken to ensure the best possible mono-compatibility for this type of processing, but strictly speaking any form of interaural time delay is not perfectly mono-compatible in the mathematical sense. Some degree of comb filtering effects can result upon collapsing the signal to mono for the reasons above. Generally, these effects are limited to high frequencies in Precedence, and care has been taken to ensure good mono compatibility in the bass frequency range where it is normally considered to be most important. Precedence is of course a product that has the explicit purpose of spatializing sounds in a stereo field. Mono is the degenerate case; it is not the primary target. The Beta mode therefore concentrates fully on making the stereo effect as good as it can possibly be, with reasonable mono-compatibility as a secondary consideration.

Tip: As in all modes, mono-compatibility improves as the Width parameter value gets smaller. Settings of 50% or less should generally be considered completely mono-compatible in almost all contexts. Exactly mathematically perfect mono-compatibility is also possible simply by reducing the Width parameter to 0%. This does not completely defeat the benefits of Precedence. Lateral and depth positioning is still possible, and modulation is still active. Extreme Width settings that approach 200% have less mono-compatibly.

Algorithm Mode: Mu

The Mu Mode was designed to provide enhanced mono-compatibility. It attempts to retain as many psychoacoustic localization principles as possible, within the constraint that the average phase correlation should be around +50%. Mu Mode does not allow strongly negative correlation, and is therefore a safer choice to use compared to the Beta Mode when mono-compatibility is of critical importance. Stereo imaging feels slightly more narrow than the Beta Mode, as indeed it is in the mathematical sense, but the Mu Mode still is able to retain many psychoacoustic benefits over standard gain panning, including rather surprisingly some degree of time differences. Mu Mode is able to create arrival time differences, as occur in Beta Mode, but does so in a way that retains as high of a degree of mono-compatibility as possible.

The Greek letter "mu" is equivalent to the Latin/English letter "m", and users can use the mnemonic "mono", or perhaps "unity" given that lower-case "mu" looks like "u", to remind themselves that the focus of this mode is mono-compatibility.

Tip: Like the Beta mode, mono-compatibility is also affected by the Width parameter. Extreme Width values such as 200% will have some reduced mono-compatibility. Values of 100% and less are considered completely mono-compatible, with both channels becoming exactly equal once again at 0%.

Algorithm Mode: Omega

The Omega Mode is a special effects mode that employs spectral shuffling to achieve width. This means different frequencies are panned differently within the spectrum to achieve width. Width can be controlled quite exactly in this mode. The result is similar to the effects caused by early reflections in real physical rooms, and indeed the Mu Mode allows exaggerated time constants to approach results normally associated with early reflections.

Unlike the Beta and Mu modes, some degree of coloration is imparted on the signal by the spectral filters employed in Mu Mode. Lateral positioning is possible, but is slightly less distinct as the Beta and Mu modes. Spectral magnitude differences can cause unavoidable minor panning effects, which vary with frequency and may partially confuse the position that the user is attempting to obtain. Some additional coloration is furthermore unavoidable when using extreme Angle values.
On the plus side, mono compatibly is exactly perfect when there is no panning (i.e. when Angle is exactly 0% in Precedence). Mono compatibly remains very good even at extreme Angle values, albeit the mono result will retain some of the coloration imparted by the spectral filters.

Omega Mode is a touch more artificial and less connected to real-world psychoacoustic principals. It is supplied as a special effects mode that can be used on sound effects, synths, and within modern music production styles that are not particularly concerned with achieving a completely authentic acoustic result.

and

Phase-Invert

The W logo below the Width knob conceals a special utility feature: phase inversion of either output channel. Precedence introduces phase differences between output channels. Statistically speaking the phase differences are applied in a conservative and controlled manner where in almost all cases the average correlation between channels will remain positive. This should be clarified however, to explain that “statistically speaking” effectively means when applied to mono white or pink noise or other similar broadband signals. In practice, phase differences are variable across the full bandwidth spectrum and specific frequencies may have some degree of negative correlation, while others may be strongly positive. Furthermore, the input source sound may have its own pre-existing complex phase differences that will interact with those created by Precedence in an unpredictable manner given that the source sound is unknown. A particular combination of source sound and Precedence parameter set results in strong negative correlation in the output, i.e. the output is “out of phase”, the Phase Invert button can be used to invert the phase of one channel to restore positive correlation, making the result more “in phase”. This is primarily a topic of concern when strong mono-compatibility is required. The Phase Invert Button has three states:

• No Inversion: no dot is shown next to the W symbol, both circles are solid in the Width display
• Invert Left: a dot is shown to the left of the W symbol, and the left circle in the Width display becomes a ring with a hollow center
• Invert Right: a dot is shown to the right of the W symbol, and the right circle in the Width display becomes a ring with a hollow center

Tip: In solo, phase inversion of either channel is more or less perceptually equivalent and it does not matter which channel is inverted. In a full mix, track blending may be slightly different depending upon which channel is inverted, so both options are made available.

Tip: The need to use the Phase Invert feature is typically rare, particularly when using the Mu and Omega Alg modes, which are designed with enhanced mono-compatibility in mind. In cases where an undesirable phase response is encountered, a click or two or three on the Variation Randomize dice may also produce a different result making phase inversion unnecessary. That should be the first thing to try. The second thing to try is to simply lower the Width knob value by a little bit. If the issue is not resolved by either of these, the Phase Invert button can be used.


Variation Randomize

The Variation Randomize button is the dice icon shown in an outlined stroke on the right side of the GUI. It creates a randomized version of the current internal DSP characters where the general perceptual position of the instrument will not changed but some of the small details to the process do change. In the physical world you could think of it as very small adjustments to the microphone positions or small adjustments to source sound attributes such as source width, directivity, micro positional details, and others. Variation Randomize will have an effect on the exact phase correlation that results from the combination of a particular input source sound, and the Precedence process, and it can be used to quickly find the best result for your particular input sound.

• Variation Randomize results are effectively infinite. Clicking on the button will never produce exactly the same result twice.
• Variation Randomize can be used with Multi-Instance Edit Groups and Global Broadcast to randomize tens or hundreds of instances simultaneously with a single click
• Variation Randomize also introduces small variations in the reverb engine of any Linked 2CAudio reverb instance

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