No More Excuses...Please Help A Wannabe Songwriter

[jancivil]

If someone here was insisting to me there is this course which totally works, I would have to see proof-of-concept. I have zero belief going in that that individual has it, not to be rude, it's just being normally skeptical. I always tended to smell bullshit with that MO.


I never thought to become a songwriter, but there is one aspiration I have which is similar in that you have to be in the world of it and there's a lot of luck involved there as to meeting the right people for this path.

Screenwriting; I know I would have to locate myself in LA and get in the scene in some way. This is really for a younger person than I was when I got full screenplays together... and I really don't like LA so it was just something very interesting to me to do, and a nice exercise in form. But people get jobs in the industry to place themselves near the center, and it takes being a social animal to social climb. Or for a song you have in your hand a ready-to-print master, and still, who cares, why will anybody care about a demo in the abstract from out of nowhere. My wholly realized screenplays don't make it to a reader with me being a nobody, there is simply too much stuff out there.

So to be perfectly honest I don't see someone sticking with a home life where music is #4 priority generating the kind of luck this all takes. Part of the selling point, unfortunately is your personality and vibe and a whole thing. AND it has to be that this sparkling new song vibes with the zeitgeist at any given time.

I was exposed to the seamy side of the business as a teen, I wasn't the songwriter but kind of the producer of the demos but I'm glad it wasn't me on the market if you get my drift. The other thing is the people who make records which have a chance at all on radio pay radio for play in numerous ways. Today things have to conform to be worth the effort, I would think. & Who knows what is a hot property? You may find some of your tunes as particular stand-outs, and afaic certain of them are perfectly viable in terms of 'this is a proper song' to be commercial but I'm the last person to grok how it fits the marketplace today. Point is though you have to place yourself were the action is, which isn't at home with wife really. I imagine you know this. You'll meet this mythical producer organically as part of your life, essentially.

[wagtunes]

The Truman Show

Michael, I should have made him be 100% clear to what I'd be getting out of all this and what was expected of me.

Most likely I would have said I wasn't interested.

I'm too old to be taking courses. I know music. I came here asking how to get that music in front of people who can get it recorded. A few people gave some good answers. I'm going to go back and re-read them, jot them down, and start working on them.

I don't expect any of them to perform any miracles but it's something.

But this whole experience has taught me a very valuable lesson.

Get it in writing.

[Unaspected]

The low price is irrelevant. Besides, I already made my decision before even checking out the link. I had no idea how much the book cost when I saw the link. I just knew I'd have to pay for it.

That's the problem that was mentioned previously, right there. You've said it yourself.

Benedict wants to paint me as the bad guy here but he lead me to believe by his statement that he loved the song and wanted to have it on a record that THAT'S what he was going to do.

Benedict didn't seem to be painting you in that light at all. In fact, he held a door open and kept a light on for longer than anyone else would.

You were reading him wrong. The guy was firmly on your side right up until you flipped out after misunderstanding - rather than calmly asking if you understood correctly.

You're doing that thing again - where you held control through ruination of the deal. I think a lot of Benedict's observations were very astute and could be helpful if you can read them without anxiety. And if that anxiety rises when you're reading, don't throw it at him - or anyone else who might be in a similar position in the future.

No one will ever be annoyed by you asking for clarity. If you want the best and you're working with other people who also want the best then everyone being on the same page is important. If you have a fear of being left behind then keep up with the questions!

[wagtunes]

If someone here was insisting to me there is this course which totally works, I would have to see proof-of-concept. I have zero belief going in that that individual has it, not to be rude, it's just being normally skeptical. I always tended to smell bullshit with that MO.


I never thought to become a songwriter, but there is one aspiration I have which is similar in that you have to be in the world of it and there's a lot of luck involved there as to meeting the right people for this path.

Screenwriting; I know I would have to locate myself in LA and get in the scene in some way. This is really for a younger person than I was when I got full screenplays together... and I really don't like LA so it was just something very interesting to me to do, and a nice exercise in form. But people get jobs in the industry to place themselves near the center, and it takes being a social animal to social climb. Or for a song you have in your hand a ready-to-print master, and still, who cares, why will anybody care about a demo in the abstract from out of nowhere. My wholly realized screenplays don't make it to a reader with me being a nobody, there is simply too much stuff out there.

So to be perfectly honest I don't see someone sticking with a home life where music is #4 priority generating the kind of luck this all takes. Part of the selling point, unfortunately is your personality and vibe and a whole thing. AND it has to be that this sparkling new song vibes with the zeitgeist at any given time.

I was exposed to the seamy side of the business as a teen, I wasn't the songwriter but kind of the producer of the demos but I'm glad it wasn't me on the market if you get my drift. The other thing is the people who make records which have a chance at all on radio pay radio for play in numerous ways. Today things have to conform to be worth the effort, I would think. & Who knows what is a hot property? You may find some of your tunes as particular stand-outs, and afaic certain of them are perfectly viable in terms of 'this is a proper song' to be commercial but I'm the last person to grok how it fits the marketplace today. Point is though you have to place yourself were the action is, which isn't at home with wife really. I imagine you know this. You'll meet this mythical producer organically as part of your life, essentially.

Thanks for the reality check Jan. It was what I suspected before I even started this thread but had to at least try to see if there was something I was missing.

Yes, I know. For me, it's move to NY or Nashville. It's spending every single day networking. It's meeting as many people as I can. It's doing crappy jobs just to get near the right people.

Ultimately, it's a life that I'm not willing to live. Not now. Maybe not ever.

Hey, I took a shot hoping for a unicorn somewhere.

[wagtunes]

The low price is irrelevant. Besides, I already made my decision before even checking out the link. I had no idea how much the book cost when I saw the link. I just knew I'd have to pay for it.

That's the problem that was mentioned previously, right there. You've said it yourself.

Benedict wants to paint me as the bad guy here but he lead me to believe by his statement that he loved the song and wanted to have it on a record that THAT'S what he was going to do.

Benedict didn't seem to be painting you in that light at all. In fact, he held a door open and kept a light on for longer than anyone else would.

You were reading him wrong. The guy was firmly on your side right up until you flipped out after misunderstanding - rather than calmly asking if you understood correctly.

You're doing that thing again - where you held control through ruination of the deal. I think a lot of Benedict's observations were very astute and could be helpful if you can read them without anxiety. And if that anxiety rises when you're reading, don't throw it at him - or anyone else who might be in a similar position in the future.

No one will ever be annoyed by you asking for clarity. If you want the best and you're working with other people who also want the best then everyone being on the same page is important. If you have a fear of being left behind then keep up with the questions!

In that respect you are 100% dead right. I should have kept asking questions if I wasn't 100% sure of what was going on.

Well, it's too late now. And I'm not going to sit here crying over what "might have been" because I've been doing this long enough to know, even when things are spelled out in a contract, that what "might have been" is almost always not worth getting upset about.

The amount of luck needed in this business is off the charts.

And I've always known that.

[samsam]

You guys feeding this monster ego, what's in it for you?

[wagtunes]

You guys feeding this monster ego, what's in it for you?

Assuming you're referring to my monster ego, honestly, I don't know what's in it for anybody here. Entertainment?

Look, I came here looking for a step by step process to get my songs in front of people. Years ago, it was sending tapes to publishers. That's all I know how to do. I was looking for more modern methods.

That's all I really wanted out of this thread. I wasn't looking for anybody to give me a publishing deal.

Anyway, I got a few ideas and I will try them.

[samsam]

You guys feeding this monster ego, what's in it for you?

Assuming you're referring to my monster ego, honestly, I don't know what's in it for anybody here. Entertainment?

I was, and thanks for the self-aware and honest reply.

Amazes me but I think you're right.

[debra1rlo]

i see a vague offer to help sell your songs in some as yet unnamed way, nothing more. Maybe you want to believe more out of impatience/frustration.

Like I said in an earlier post, that's on me. I should have flat out asked, "Exactly WHAT are you offering me?" And if the answer was vague or not something I was interested in doing, I would have simply replied, "Thanks, but I'm not interested."

Would have saved us BOTH a lot of time and all this bad blood between us.

Well, taking a course like that probably wouldn't be for me to begin with, but I'm not really trying to sell any of my solo material anymore, as much as sell my services in production/mixing and as a side musician for live and studio work... But I don't really see that he overtly misled you, I'm sensing you have this impatience for success because of all this time you have put into your craft and that may be clouding your judgment a little. Plus the model you strive for is really a dying format, the majority of in-demand songwriters tend to already be artists in their own right.

Something to consider: I know that if i DID have connections to match songwriters to artists and was successful at it, I would probably screen people in some similar way, to see if they see things thru so as not to waste my time. Not saying I know this, but it's a possibility.

[wagtunes]

You guys feeding this monster ego, what's in it for you?

Assuming you're referring to my monster ego, honestly, I don't know what's in it for anybody here. Entertainment?

I was, and thanks for the self-aware and honest reply.

Amazes me but I think you're right.

I hope you won't hold it against me. Truth is, what you see is more anger at the world than monster ego. I've been let down so many times that I've built up a massive amount of just flat out anger and resentment when it comes to this business.

Truth is, I don't think I'm anywhere near as talented as the musical greats. In fact, when I hear my favorite artists I continually say to myself "I wish I was that good."

But what gets me is all these people with almost no talent who make it big. I won't post the list because I'd be typing forever. However, I'm sure what they lacked in talent they probably made up for with determination. They probably did everything humanly possible to make it from networking to working crappy jobs to whatever. I've admitted that I'm not willing to do that at this stage in my life. It's just not important enough to me.

That much I did realize from this train wreck of a thread.

I really don't care enough.

[mgw38]

A quick interception re education in the creative disciplines because that is my area. You cannot become a songwriter by reading a book or taking an online course. That is about as ridiculous as the idea that you can become a chef by watching Jamie Oliver on TV or becoming a painter by watching Bob Ross (as entertaining as that is).

Education in the creative disciplines works in form of a rapid repetition of production, critique by experts and peers, and your personal reflection on that feedback, which you then take back to production. Repeat ad infinitum. It is an intensely communicative process that works best in face to face environments.

But the most interesting part of it is that you are never too old or too good to benefit from that. Even the very best constantly learn from other people telling them what they think about their work. The key to professional growth as a songwriter (or any creative for that matter) is primarily your ability to properly reflect on outside feedback and to adjust your thinking about your own work accordingly. Any good educational environment will focus on that.

[wagtunes]

i see a vague offer to help sell your songs in some as yet unnamed way, nothing more. Maybe you want to believe more out of impatience/frustration.

Like I said in an earlier post, that's on me. I should have flat out asked, "Exactly WHAT are you offering me?" And if the answer was vague or not something I was interested in doing, I would have simply replied, "Thanks, but I'm not interested."

Would have saved us BOTH a lot of time and all this bad blood between us.

Well, taking a course like that probably wouldn't be for me to begin with, but I'm not really trying to sell any of my solo material anymore, as much as sell my services in production/mixing and as a side musician for live and studio work... But I don't really see that he overtly misled you, I'm sensing you have this impatience for success because of all this time you have put into your craft and that may be clouding your judgment a little. Plus the model you strive for is really a dying format, the majority of in-demand songwriters tend to already be artists in their own right.

Something to consider: I know that if i DID have connections to match songwriters to artists and was successful at it, I would probably screen people in some similar way, to see if they see things thru so as not to waste my time. Not saying I know this, but it's a possibility.

And that was my suspicion that Benedict wanted to see how hungry for success I really was and if I was willing to do anything to get it, even take an artist development course and pass it to his requirements.

Obviously, I'm not hungry enough because after getting my answers rejected, I was done.

So maybe I'm just not cut out for this business.

[Unaspected]

You guys feeding this monster ego, what's in it for you?

I don't think Wags has a monster ego. I think he has some genuine difficulty interpreting things sometimes and so I hoped I could offer a calmer perspective because that is my nature. I hoped I could help make things a little easier to digest - though I was honest. Also, I felt that others might see the same and I believe they do - a number of people have met Wags halfway. Channels of communication have opened up. Yes that has lead to some further misunderstandings but being open and approachable is the only way I can see for anyone to make it.

You guys feeding this monster ego, what's in it for you?

Assuming you're referring to my monster ego, honestly, I don't know what's in it for anybody here. Entertainment?

Look, I came here looking for a step by step process to get my songs in front of people. Years ago, it was sending tapes to publishers. That's all I know how to do. I was looking for more modern methods.

That's all I really wanted out of this thread. I wasn't looking for anybody to give me a publishing deal.

Anyway, I got a few ideas and I will try them.

Definitely try the contact points I mentioned on the first page. They are much more likely to help than swamped A&R departments. Though I stress that you will need radio friendly productions - and you are trying to make that happen so just focus on that for now.

A quick interception re education in the creative disciplines because that is my area. You cannot become a songwriter by reading a book or taking an online course. That is about as ridiculous as the idea that you can become a chef by watching Jamie Oliver on TV or becoming a painter by watching Bob Ross (as entertaining as that is).

Education in the creative disciplines works in form of a rapid repetition of production, critique by experts and peers, and your personal reflection on that feedback, which you then take back to production. Repeat ad infinitum. It is an intensely communicative process that works best in face to face environments.

But the most interesting part of it is that you are never too old or too good to benefit from that. Even the very best constantly learn from other people telling them what they think about their work. The key to professional growth as a songwriter (or any creative for that matter) is primarily your ability to properly reflect on outside feedback and to adjust your thinking about your own work accordingly. Any good educational environment will focus on that.

Great post.

[wagtunes]

A quick interception re education in the creative disciplines because that is my area. You cannot become a songwriter by reading a book or taking an online course. That is about as ridiculous as the idea that you can become a chef by watching Jamie Oliver on TV or becoming a painter by watching Bob Ross (as entertaining as that is).

Education in the creative disciplines works in form of a rapid repetition of production, critique by experts and peers, and your personal reflection on that feedback, which you then take back to production. Repeat ad infinitum. It is an intensely communicative process that works best in face to face environments.

But the most interesting part of it is that you are never too old or too good to benefit from that. Even the very best constantly learn from other people telling them what they think about their work. The key to professional growth as a songwriter (or any creative for that matter) is primarily your ability to properly reflect on outside feedback and to adjust your thinking about your own work accordingly. Any good educational environment will focus on that.

And I would have no problem with that, except it requires 2 things.

1. Find somebody even WILLING to provide you with that kind of feedback.

2. Be willing to then got out there and network with these people.

As a total unknown, the chances of the former are slim to none and as somebody set in his life, the chances of the latter are almost as bad.

I needed to make it in the 70s or 80s when I first started. But I had ZERO talent back then so it wasn't going to happen. Now that I'm married and 3 years away from Medicare, with a business and responsibilities to my church, I just don't have the time.

If I could go back in time, with the level of talent I have now, and start all over again, I might have a snow ball's chance in hell.

Now, I have no chance.

[samsam]

I hoped I could help make things a little easier to digest - though I was honest.

Fair enough.

When folk live their lives so publicly I tend to run but I'm in the minority these days so that's OK.