Wagtunes Production Music

[wagtunes]

Maybe add in some melodies too.

Okay, previously you said to turn down the lead instruments. Those are the melodies. Now you're saying add them back in?

Sorry. Confused.

This guy has stated he doesn't know library music....he's reacting to a stand alone piece. His advice will be flawed but so will mine because I think you are wasting your time. Especially since a paycheck is your driving force. Music...love it or leave it. Love it enough it MIGHT pay some dividends. Don't love it enough you might get a one hit wonder. Ultimately no one will remember your name or song.

Well you know what? It's my time to waste.

Thank you for your feedback.

Waste away... Here's something to consider. The field you are trying to break into is fading fast. There is decades of popular music for producers of news, sports, and documentaries to draw from. Stop what you are doing turn on your TV. I guarantee that every commercial,show etc. is using a popular song as is or adapted to invoke the atmosphere they seek. The viewer can readily relate to these already successful tracks. Even politicians harvest this treasure trove for their campaigns. Because of our history you react to me as trolling you and just being negative. I have NO skin invested in the game so chances are I am bluntly more honest with you, but the truth sometimes hurts.

Let me ask you a question. If this field is, as you say, fading fast, then what are all these library sites online doing? Are they dying? Are they all going to suddenly close up shop? I mean don't get me wrong, industries have died. We all know that. But where is your evidence outside of your own perception by what you see on TV that there is no future here for anybody, especially when I've had people IN the industry tell me that there is more than enough demand for library music. Are they all liars?

[wagtunes]

I finally overcame my paralysis and wrote my first track.

Here was my thought process going into this and actually executing it.

First of all, I cleared my mind of everything. I didn't listen to any music beforehand. I didn't want to be influenced by anything. I also didn't want to allow my safe biases influence what I wrote. IOW, I tried to get away from my norm.

I then opened up my DAW and let my mind wander, trying to hear sounds, textures, whatever, in my head. I then opened up a plugin and looked for something similar to what I was hearing in my head as a foundation. You'll hear it plays through almost the whole track.

I then played it back and went through the process again, thinking what I could build onto it. And I kept doing this for layer after layer.

I didn't concern myself too much with production as far as processing, but I did keep an eye on my SPAN to make sure nothing was terribly out of whack. No harsh frequencies or serious mud.

As I'm going through the process, I asked myself what I could imagine this being played under and named it accordingly. I think the title alone (which I was told by somebody in the business is critical to success) will at least get people to check it out.

Anyway, this is what I ultimately came up with. Please feel free to be completely honest. I personally have no idea how good, bad or indifferent this is as I have no frame of reference and this is my first track. But I will say this. The track is no attempt to be any kind of copy of anyone or any genre. It is totally me and how my brain worked to get here. If you think it's just plain horrible, say so. If you can maybe give an idea why, that would help.

This is very important to me, so please. Be as brutal as you need to be. Hopefully, with each suggestion, I can improve over time. And maybe I won't improve. As somebody said in another thread, maybe I'm never going to be any good at doing this. But at least I'm going to try.

Thank you for listening and your support.

https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim ... -mysteries

TOOO LOUD!!! TOOO DRAMATIC! Think background...the narration and visuals are the focus NOT the BACKGROUND music. You're trying to be the center of attention...that's not the role of library music. You are trying to be cinematic...if you're want to go that route you should be composing to video and the specific action taking place. Maybe you should spend some time watching public television. Personally I don't think production music is for you. You want to be the star...not be relegated to your name buried in the credits or given no credit at all.

Actually, given some of the careers some of the top library music producers have, in spite of them being unknown, I'd be perfectly happy to be an unknown but get a nice little paycheck once in a while.

But basically what you're saying, in regard to the track, is that there is too much going on and will detract from whatever voiceover is on top of it.

Correct?

Maybe what one can do is make two versions. A stripped down version and a busy version. When I listen to it, I hear too much drama and not enough atmosphere. If I were collecting music for a doc I was working on, I'd be looking for music that creates an atmosphere for the visuals. It has to have space so that the focus the doc can come to the foreground. The focus will be the story and narrative of the doc.

Its really hard to answer as there isn't a specific doc that we are discussing. What may be worthwhile is looking as some average docs on Netflix or Mubi (ones not made by well known film makers) and paying attention to what is going on with the music in the background.

Yeah, I was trying to avoid being influenced by the work of others. I just wanted to be myself and let whatever come out naturally.

But I may have to do as you suggest.

Let me get some more opinions first.

I am a film guy and I am listening to your piece from a hypothetical perspective if I were working on a film.

If I were working on a doc about ancient civilizations, it sounds a little too synth heavy and too effects laden for my tastes. I wouldn't know where to place the parts with the effects. They add a very overwhelming dramatic feel -- and there are only going to be so many overly dramatic moments in a doc. I am envisioning this as if it were me working on a objective documentary about Assyrians or ancient Judaism. The effects (aka .. those cave like swishes) seem too overwhelming. They would only work if it were a doc there the narrative revolves around some sort of unsolved mystery set in ancient times.

Just try doing a version without the swishes and limit the use of the plucky motifs to just the beginning and once at the end. See how that sounds.

(also, perhaps don't focus too much of what the type of doc you think the piece is meant for. Focus more on thematic feels of whats the music adds to a visual. e.g. mood, feel, emotions.)

Gotcha. So get rid of the swishes and limit the plucky melody to the beginning and end. Not sure how much is actually left but I'll do another version.

[The Noodlist]

I agree with elements jumping out, maybe these areas could be used for suspense, i.e. "the butler did"
Visuals should be the primary focus and music unobtrusive,
A perspective user could also automate the volume in areas if required, along with ducking.

So there should be more space in the track and then cues for things to jump out. That's difficult to do without having a video to cue to. Thus why production music is more generic so it can be used for multiple things.

Perhaps the piece is simply too busy and unsuitable for generic use. Tomorrow, or maybe even tonight, I will work on a piece that's more minimalist.

For me, it does set a scene as you described. You can also take my comments with a pinch of salt, I don't have TV and not watched any for a long time. YouTube and DVDs are my thing.

[wagtunes]

Okay, here is version 2 with fewer plucks (beginning and end) and the swooshes gone.

Better?

https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim ... ysteries-2

[Passing Bye]

Your other thread is locked, but reading your last comment, just wanted to say, why not write music somebody else can enjoy, try to reach someone, to walk in their shoes, to give them something they can resonate with, there's plenty of "look at me" music people just don't get and there's no shortage of any generic crap, you can really do it, just try to understand your audience more, simplify things a little, it's there in you already, you know how to make catchy things, just simplify it, it's music for them, it's their 3 mins getaway from this world.

[wagtunes]

Your other thread is locked, but reading your last comment, just wanted to say, why not write music somebody else can enjoy, try to reach someone, to walk in their shoes, to give them something they can resonate with, there's plenty of "look at me" music people just don't get and there's no shortage of any generic crap, you can really do it, just try to understand your audience more, simplify things a little, it's there in you already, you know how to make catchy things, just simplify it, it's music for them, it's their 3 mins getaway from this world.

The pop music business is too hard. I gave it more than a fair chance for 42 years. It's time to move on.

[toonertik]

Think that works quite well. I could well imagine it as background music for one of these documentaries - say, "Did ancient aliens visit the Earth in ancient times?" or some other such nutneckery. You get my drift....

Nothing sounded too out of place or too loud etc, and it seemed to be suitably dark and mysterious to me. Good attempt I'd say. Let's see what some of the people with more experience in the field say though.

That's what I was going for but Telecode seems to think there's too much going on. Personally, I can't tell as I really have no frame of reference. It may or may not be too dense. No clue.

Don't a lot of these companies want a few different versions anyhow though - e.g a full more 'busy' version, and then others with less elements? I suppose then you'd compose the 'full' version (as in this case) and do mixes of the others from that.

Just listened before I read this...
Yes donks... on the money with this.

Waggles... some really good themes here... good to hear you out of your comfort zone (ie; not writing with songs /words in mind) There are lovely bits that could be taken and worked on...
I very much liked the percussion bits... suggest you work that as a seperate entity. There are other fragments that can be worked.

I mentioned before that I was a user of library music for commercial productions... often taking segments and (tape) looping them.
Think about this piece as the amalgamation of various parts, that the user can also use.
I mentioned before... it's a different mindset... seems you can do this to me...

[wagtunes]

Think that works quite well. I could well imagine it as background music for one of these documentaries - say, "Did ancient aliens visit the Earth in ancient times?" or some other such nutneckery. You get my drift....

Nothing sounded too out of place or too loud etc, and it seemed to be suitably dark and mysterious to me. Good attempt I'd say. Let's see what some of the people with more experience in the field say though.

That's what I was going for but Telecode seems to think there's too much going on. Personally, I can't tell as I really have no frame of reference. It may or may not be too dense. No clue.

Don't a lot of these companies want a few different versions anyhow though - e.g a full more 'busy' version, and then others with less elements? I suppose then you'd compose the 'full' version (as in this case) and do mixes of the others from that.

Just listened before I read this...
Yes donks... on the money with this.

Waggles... some really good themes here... good to hear you out of your comfort zone (ie; not writing with songs /words in mind) There are lovely bits that could be taken and worked on...
I very much liked the percussion bits... suggest you work that as a seperate entity. There are other fragments that can be worked.

I mentioned before that I was a user of library music for commercial productions... often taking segments and (tape) looping them.
Think about this piece as the amalgamation of various parts, that the user can also use.
I mentioned before... it's a different mindset... seems you can do this to me...

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm trying. This is all new to me and totally out of my comfort zone. I'm relying on what little music theory I have to try to steer me through this. I may end up with 5 or 6 versions of this. Who knows?

But I'm not against trying anything. I'm going to have a completely open mind about this.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

To be fair, I think Ktba is right. No one else has been able to get an Egyptian documentay gig since The Bangles, back in the 80's

[Distorted Horizon]

I finally came

Quite soundtrackish. I liked it! Doesn't sound AT ALL like your old tracks. This has somekind of.. Well you older tracks often sounded a bit like you'd try to make a track of something that isn't your genre. Now this track is smooth sailing from the beginning to the end. Some of those swooshes were a bit loud to my ear, but generally the concept is very nice. Track lives up to its name

[wagtunes]

I finally came

Quite soundtrackish. I liked it! Doesn't sound AT ALL like your old tracks. This has somekind of.. Well you older tracks often sounded a bit like you'd try to make a track of something that isn't your genre. Now this track is smooth sailing from the beginning to the end. Some of those swooshes were a bit loud to my ear, but generally the concept is very nice. Track lives up to its name

The question is though, is it suitable for an underscore or is it too busy?

[Distorted Horizon]

Hm. I could easily imagine it playing in some national geographic episode or crash bandicoot game.

[JoeCat]

Jeez - Wags asked what y'all thought of the track, not "am I wasting my time pursuing a field you aren't interested in?" That's some serious trolling right there to turn another thread into a crap-fest. Paying so much attention to someone you want to trash (as opposed to simply ignoring) is probably a personality flaw. Criticizing the musical output is fine (that's what he asked for).

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Wags - great job. I don't think you need to assume it would be used under narrative - there's plenty of library music that has vocals, is dramatic without being orchestral, etc.
I'm no expert, but I've been listening to a lot just to get an idea of what's out there (since I'm also pursing production music, not so much for money - nice though - but to have a working goal). My music's a lot, lot busier than yours. I suspect that, if a company likes your work but thinks it's a bit busy, they'll tell you and stay interested - that's probably isn't a deal-breaker, since it's something easily fixed (unlike a lack of originality). That said, I do like the pared-down version a bit better. I think it pays to be careful about adding effects, etc. just for the sake of it. But as was stated before - you may be called on to provide different versions, and that's easy enough for anyone with a passing understanding of production.

It evokes a specific mood - that's what counts. Keywords could be "ambient" "ancient" "mysterious", etc. I think the most important thing you do now (from what I've read and heard), is stick with that theme, and produce a few more like-tracks, so you have a set of material. I'm working something of a "dark nostalgic childhood theme set." Using one or two of the same instruments or like instruments, etc., can help create coherence without repetition.

In any case, IMHO this is EXACTLY the direction you want to go in. The pop stuff is fun, but you've successfully subverted that for this aspect of your output. You can always do both.

I may be wrong but I think (going back to the old Wagtunes thread) I helped turn you on to this (production music), so glad to see you're moving forward, and this is a great first step. I'd say so if it were otherwise.

If I had any other advice (and I've said this to you in another thread), it's this: work for quality, not quantity. You produce a lot - I think your work could simply stand a longer editing process. I find it helpful to work on a few tracks at once so I'm putting one away for at least a few days, while working on another. Then, I listen to it and take some notes - always noticing something that can be changed, etc. Make it more of an iterative process; toss what really doesn't meet your standards, and if something's not quite there, consider just keeping the part(s) you love. I've learned that if there's something I'm instinctively unsure of, I'll give it a day or two - if that opinion hasn't changed, I'll delete or change it. Don't be afraid of "undoing" a track (after making a copy, of course)!

[wagtunes]

Jeez - Wags asked what y'all thought of the track, not "am I wasting my time pursuing a field you aren't interested in?" That's some serious trolling right there to turn another thread into a crap-fest. Paying so much attention to someone you want to trash (as opposed to simply ignoring) is probably a personality flaw. Criticizing the musical output is fine (that's what he asked for).

******************************************

Wags - great job. I don't think you need to assume it would be used under narrative - there's plenty of library music that has vocals, is dramatic without being orchestral, etc.
I'm no expert, but I've been listening to a lot just to get an idea of what's out there (since I'm also pursing production music, not so much for money - nice though - but to have a working goal). My music's a lot, lot busier than yours. I suspect that, if a company likes your work but thinks it's a bit busy, they'll tell you and stay interested - that's probably isn't a deal-breaker, since it's something easily fixed (unlike a lack of originality). That said, I do like the pared-down version a bit better. I think it pays to be careful about adding effects, etc. just for the sake of it. But as was stated before - you may be called on to provide different versions, and that's easy enough for anyone with a passing understanding of production.

It evokes a specific mood - that's what counts. Keywords could be "ambient" "ancient" "mysterious", etc. I think the most important thing you do now (from what I've read and heard), is stick with that theme, and produce a few more like-tracks, so you have a set of material. I'm working something of a "dark nostalgic childhood theme set." Using one or two of the same instruments or like instruments, etc., can help create coherence without repetition.

In any case, IMHO this is EXACTLY the direction you want to go in. The pop stuff is fun, but you've successfully subverted that for this aspect of your output. You can always do both.

I may be wrong but I think (going back to the old Wagtunes thread) I helped turn you on to this (production music), so glad to see you're moving forward, and this is a great first step. I'd say so if it were otherwise.

If I had any other advice (and I've said this to you in another thread), it's this: work for quality, not quantity. You produce a lot - I think your work could simply stand a longer editing process. I find it helpful to work on a few tracks at once so I'm putting one away for at least a few days, while working on another. Then, I listen to it and take some notes - always noticing something that can be changed, etc. Make it more of an iterative process; toss what really doesn't meet your standards, and if something's not quite there, consider just keeping the part(s) you love. I've learned that if there's something I'm instinctively unsure of, I'll give it a day or two - if that opinion hasn't changed, I'll delete or change it. Don't be afraid of "undoing" a track (after making a copy, of course)!

Thanks Joe. Really appreciate this.

[Karma_tba]

That's some serious trolling right there to turn another thread into a crap-fest. Paying so much attention to someone you want to trash (as opposed to simply ignoring) is probably a personality flaw.
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Seems like you are doing the same thing...when you could simply ignore me.