Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - 1.8.5 the main thread

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Vladislav_Gronk wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:01 pmEvery pirated download =/= lost customer
That's correct. As I understand it, here's the correct equation

Pirated product = 2/3rds customers leave

Depressing though it is, that's about the same figure I've seen time and again from developers who get pirated, their sales drop by approx 2/3rds. So can we please quit with this old tiresome equation above? Even though technically correct, it doesn't advance an argument at all.
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noiseboyuk wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:53 pm
Vladislav_Gronk wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:01 pmEvery pirated download =/= lost customer
That's correct. As I understand it, here's the correct equation

Pirated product = 2/3rds customers leave

Depressing though it is, that's about the same figure I've seen time and again from developers who get pirated, their sales drop by approx 2/3rds. So can we please quit with this old tiresome equation above? Even though technically correct, it doesn't advance an argument at all.
Please give a source on that "correct equation". I don't believe there is conclusive evidence that piracy hurts sales in such big numbers. I have for example seen studies that show pirates are the biggest buyers of legal software etc. Piracy is not so black & white as some people think.

But its an endless discussion, if Vengeance want to cripple paying customers it's 100% their choice. We will have to wait and see if the pirates suddenly decide to buy Avenger now or if they just go use some other cracked synth instead.

What we know is that new protection will be more inconvenient for paying customer. Especially offline studio computers or when internet goes down. That's a fact.

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Ryan99 wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:10 pm On the pirate website forum comments, cracked Avenger expansions were used by paying Avenger customers, so yes there’s a real potential for lost sales.
Even more of a reason for Vengeance to do what they are doing. People just don't give a crap. That's why I have no problem with this whole copy protection thing. Avenger as a whole, is a very valuable product for all intents and purposes. If I want to continue using it, I don't give a shit if I'm legally bound to wear a chastity belt as a form of copy protection while using it. I'll survive, and life goes on. Simple. Not a freakin' big deal. There are much bigger things to have a hissy fit about. This ain't one of 'em for sure.
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Vladislav_Gronk wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:22 pm
starflakeprj wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:06 pm No, the developer will loose more money due to piracy than the jewelry store will.
:? What is that based on?
The jewelry store will have insurance, which I mentioned in another post. So the insurance company will pay compensation for the jewelry stolen.
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starflakeprj wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:34 pm The jewelry store will have insurance, which I mentioned in another post. So the insurance company will pay compensation for the jewelry stolen.
And who pays for insurance?

Let's not go too off-topic but physical stealing and piracy is a big difference. I don't advocate piracy, decent developers should always be supported.

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Ryan99 wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:10 pm On the pirate website forum comments, cracked Avenger expansions were used by paying Avenger customers, so yes there’s a real potential for lost sales.
And there is no surprise when Vengeance asks 65 eu for a soundset

If you buy a car for 20 000 and 1 tyre costs 7000 im sure you would "download it" too if no one would know, see or report it :lol:

Sorry not sorry, but come one Vengeace, its your own damn fault legit users are cracking ridiculously priced soundsets.

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Yes, soundsets (and most are mediocre) are seriously overpriced. Price of vst alone is ok for what you get. Going codemeter at end, if it will be without dongle, than I am all for it.

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Elektronisch wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:23 pm
Ryan99 wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:10 pm On the pirate website forum comments, cracked Avenger expansions were used by paying Avenger customers, so yes there’s a real potential for lost sales.
And there is no surprise when Vengeance asks 65 eu for a soundset

If you buy a car for 20 000 and 1 tyre costs 7000 im sure you would "download it" too if no one would know, see or report it :lol:
TBH, i never got that kind of argumentation. I don't steal cars. And i don't steal software. So why would a expensive software or addon be a motivation to steal? That doesn't make much sense. Especially when you can afford a cheaper car, to get from A to B.

I don't think anyone of use would want to live in a world where such (im)moral standards exist. As to be seen in many south american or african countries. I don't think we should take that as golden examples of how it should be, right?

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Trancit wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:18 am Another good example for BS...
Let´s do a bit of math... splice sells you a sample for a dollar!!!
Sample Packs contain mostly 2000-5000 samples... meaning in splice´s mentality (it´s not 100% valid but you get the idea) they could easily charge 2-5k for that pack... and you claim "EGO" makes them selling it for 80,-$... this is extremely cheap compared to splice...

The only and absolute the only advantage you´ve got with splice is to be able to buy a single sample only... but compared to sample packs their price is insanely high... remember sample pack: i.e. 3000 samples for 80,-$= more or less 2.5 cents/sample... means splice is selling it 40 times higher!!!
Man, they must have an EGO!!!
That's not correct. Splice sells 100 credits for $7,99. Loopcloud about the same. Each sample is 1 credit, a preset is 3 credits. Bigger packs give you even more value for money.
But you get at least 100 samples for 8 bucks. That's 8 cents per sample. :wink:

Oh, and there is no Vengeance Sample pack that contains 3000 samples. Most of their packs contain somewhere between 600 and 1500 samples. With a few exceptions (the newer ones that i checked) that contain multi-sampled sounds hence the bigger amount of total samples.

And altho the Vengeance packs are really good quality (they really are very useable) you will NEVER use more than 100 samples from one pack, and that would already be incredibly much. But in that extreme case you'd pay 80 cents per sample. Which is 10 times as much as 1 Splice or Loopcloud sample that you can hand-pick :wink:
More BPM please

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HcDoom wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:36 pm Yes, soundsets (and most are mediocre) are seriously overpriced. Price of vst alone is ok for what you get. Going codemeter at end, if it will be without dongle, than I am all for it.
could you please name them? maybe via PM
because I´ve not chosen which to take, but bought this 5-pack at Sweetwater, nevertheless I don´t waste my money for bad XPs

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chk071 wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:41 pm
Elektronisch wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:23 pm
Ryan99 wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:10 pm On the pirate website forum comments, cracked Avenger expansions were used by paying Avenger customers, so yes there’s a real potential for lost sales.
And there is no surprise when Vengeance asks 65 eu for a soundset

If you buy a car for 20 000 and 1 tyre costs 7000 im sure you would "download it" too if no one would know, see or report it :lol:
TBH, i never got that kind of argumentation. I don't steal cars. And i don't steal software. So why would a expensive software or addon be a motivation to steal? That doesn't make much sense. Especially when you can afford a cheaper car, to get from A to B.

I don't think anyone of use would want to live in a world where such (im)moral standards exist. As to be seen in many south american or african countries. I don't think we should take that as golden examples of how it should be, right?
Thats not the case at all. You are quoting whats right not whats fair in the people eyes might be sometines.

Piracy and price still play a role when it comes to cracking.

Vengeance made such imbalance between price and what you get in that soundset just doesnt surprise me even tho it is not right thing what pirates are doing. And you cant deny that when most soundsets rangr from 12-30 eu.

In general for many people there is less moral obligation when it comes to software because its not a physical object. Stealing car is much more dangerious because it requires physical work and you are taking something that owner looses, unlike software which you dont loose as a physical object.

Continuing...sure you can search for alternatives but people arent equal and if they want exactly that thing (aka avenger expansion in this case) but cant afford it or not ready to pay 65 eu then why not to pirate it. No one will punish them anyway.

And keep in mind i dont justify this but i do understand why some legit users would do that.
Last edited by Elektronisch on Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vladislav_Gronk wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:28 pmPlease give a source on that "correct equation".
That might take me a week's worth of digging, so forgive if I don't. It's based on the public comments of developers on several forums over many years, and a few private conversations. They all report essentially the same thing - sales drop off a cliff the moment the torrent hits the web, to that level of about 30%. It's more or less instantaneous apparently.

Believe me or not - I've nothing in this game except wanting to see good developers stay in business. I'm just reporting what many have told me.
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noiseboyuk wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:28 pm
Vladislav_Gronk wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:28 pmPlease give a source on that "correct equation".
That might take me a week's worth of digging, so forgive if I don't. It's based on the public comments of developers on several forums over many years, and a few private conversations. They all report essentially the same thing - sales drop off a cliff the moment the torrent hits the web, to that level of about 30%. It's more or less instantaneous apparently.

Believe me or not - I've nothing in this game except wanting to see good developers stay in business. I'm just reporting what many have told me.
That's something I've been fascinated since I've read about it. The only parameter on which statistics can be based of is the medium frequency at which a product is sold. Now, if the stream of sales is incredibly dense (aka many people keep buying the product) you can count on it reliably (because the "sample" you draw statistics on is big). But there is an issue with some claims: you can't really say that sales dropped by 30% right after a cracked version of the program was released (because you need a certain amount of time before saying that you've sold, let's say, 15 copies a week, at least a week should pass, and the following ones should behave the same way). The only case when you can draw that kind of statistics in a very short span of time is when you have subscription services, and when something gets released illegally people are cancelling their subscription: you can see the immediate effects, but "sales" per se are a finite event that might or might not occur.

Sorry for the sloppy english, I hope I was clear.
So, it would be very interesting to know what kind of statistics the claims were based on, is it sales per week or anything like that? It would also be interesting to see how many website visits occurred compared to when the software wasn't cracked.

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noiseboyuk wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:28 pm
Vladislav_Gronk wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:28 pmPlease give a source on that "correct equation".
That might take me a week's worth of digging, so forgive if I don't. It's based on the public comments of developers on several forums over many years, and a few private conversations. They all report essentially the same thing - sales drop off a cliff the moment the torrent hits the web, to that level of about 30%. It's more or less instantaneous apparently.

Believe me or not - I've nothing in this game except wanting to see good developers stay in business. I'm just reporting what many have told me.
That's not true: Afair Fabien from TDR said exactly the opposite here.
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It's fair to say that Vengeance plugins are far more coveted than the TDR ones, I'm sure. What is true for TDR might not be true for other developers, it's not possible to compare since nothing is just black or white.
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