Is macOS Catalina A Step Forward Against Software Piracy?

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.
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Forgotten
KVRAF
5060 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:39 pm

Magnut wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:37 pm
Forgotten wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:30 pm
but now I get called an Apple fanboi simply by merit of owning an Apple product
Or maybe just because of your behavior :shrug: :tu:
QED.

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mgw38
KVRAF
2070 posts since 26 Jul, 2015 from Philadelphia

Re: Is macOS Catalina A Step Forward Against Software Piracy?

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:13 pm

Forgotten wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:30 pm
It's really odd how so many people attribute being an end user of Apple products with being rabid fanbois who are totally blind to being enslaved to an evil empire.
I'm a member of the shape-shifting reptilian elite, I do not fear human empires.
Forgotten wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:30 pm
I've never really hated any of the manufacturers as they all have their good and bad aspects, but find it really strange that no one ever called me a Microsoft fanboi while I was using Windows, but now I get called an Apple fanboi simply by merit of owning an Apple product. :shrug:
In all fairness, I think that is Apple's own fault. They started the whole thing themselves with their "I'm a Mac I'm a PC" campaign.

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Forgotten
KVRAF
5060 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: Is macOS Catalina A Step Forward Against Software Piracy?

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:24 pm

Perhaps, although wasn’t that in response to Microsoft’s TV advertising that sarcastically compared a Surface to an iPad?

I don’t think it was all one way.

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mgw38
KVRAF
2070 posts since 26 Jul, 2015 from Philadelphia

Re: Is macOS Catalina A Step Forward Against Software Piracy?

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:29 pm

The infamous "Get a Mac" campaign ran from 2006 to 2009, the first Surface was released 2012. The "Apple Fanboy" is something Apple created themselves. Justin Long was the prototype for that.

Zaphod (giancarlo)
KVRAF
2495 posts since 23 Jun, 2006

Re: Is macOS Catalina A Step Forward Against Software Piracy?

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:35 pm

mgw38 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:13 pm
Forgotten wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:30 pm
It's really odd how so many people attribute being an end user of Apple products with being rabid fanbois who are totally blind to being enslaved to an evil empire.
I'm a member of the shape-shifting reptilian elite, I do not fear human empires.
Forgotten wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:30 pm
I've never really hated any of the manufacturers as they all have their good and bad aspects, but find it really strange that no one ever called me a Microsoft fanboi while I was using Windows, but now I get called an Apple fanboi simply by merit of owning an Apple product. :shrug:
In all fairness, I think that is Apple's own fault. They started the whole thing themselves with their "I'm a Mac I'm a PC" campaign.
+10000000

About the thread question: no
If the entitlements are relaxed and you can edit quarantine flags it means it didn't change anything. Oh yes the signature thing, it doesn't change anything. Nobody checks the signature owner, never. And signed code would run unsigned injected code, in the same way it was doing the unsigned one.
If all entitlements are forced or removed you can't protect your code at all, apart adding time bombs to your monolithic executable. You can't create a VM or even a compiler. For a cracker it would be the real heaven: they can reverse engineer the code easily
Everything is good if you are coding an arcade game for a closed system like a phone, but I don't see how it could be enforced in actual desktop architecture, unless they enforce a pure client/external server processing style or even worse, their app store for everybody (and business model). Yes, a closed read only system would work, but without the actual audio ecosystem.

My 2 cents: while a jail break doesn't make a sense on a phone, it would make a lot of sense for a desktop. So in the long term it doesn't protect from piracy. Anyway, no audio products, no piracy.
Last edited by Zaphod (giancarlo) on Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Forgotten
KVRAF
5060 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: Is macOS Catalina A Step Forward Against Software Piracy?

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:45 pm

mgw38 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:29 pm
The infamous "Get a Mac" campaign ran from 2006 to 2009, the first Surface was released 2012. The "Apple Fanboy" is something Apple created themselves. Justin Long was the prototype for that.
OK, so not even close...I didn't realize the Apple vs. Mac was from so long ago...

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Hink
Rad Grandad
29530 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Re: Is macOS Catalina A Step Forward Against Software Piracy?

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:11 pm

how many mac vs pc threads are we gonna have?

Answer in the morning but I would suggest sticking to the topic, we dont need all these fights and I keep getting reports. So leave you statements out of ALL of the threads, not resorting to any name calling (even fanboi or the equivalent) because those are the threads I am going to DELETE. Please stop the memes as well...this thread deals with mac vs pc as well as piracy, are we getting the point yet?

I will never understand why I have to say this every single day of my life, PEOPLE THE RULES DONT CHANGE WITH EVERY THREAD
Albert Einstein may have been a genius but his brother Frank was a monster

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Richard_Synapse
KVRian
945 posts since 20 Dec, 2010

Re: Is macOS Catalina A Step Forward Against Software Piracy?

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:50 pm

Zaphod (giancarlo) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:35 pm
About the thread question: no
If the entitlements are relaxed and you can edit quarantine flags it means it didn't change anything. Oh yes the signature thing, it doesn't change anything. Nobody checks the signature owner, never. And signed code would run unsigned injected code, in the same way it was doing the unsigned one.
If all entitlements are forced or removed you can't protect your code at all, apart adding time bombs to your monolithic executable. You can't create a VM or even a compiler.
Why would any OS X owner (people who probably appreciate safety) install shady software at all? It would be a bad idea to do so, if the system is as vulnerable and easy to manipulate as you claim it is.

Either way Mac conversion rates seem substantially higher than Windows, which indicates that Mac users simply buy what they like :)

Richard
Synapse Audio Software - www.synapse-audio.com

Zaphod (giancarlo)
KVRAF
2495 posts since 23 Jun, 2006

Re: Is macOS Catalina A Step Forward Against Software Piracy?

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:43 am

Richard_Synapse wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:50 pm
Zaphod (giancarlo) wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:35 pm
About the thread question: no
If the entitlements are relaxed and you can edit quarantine flags it means it didn't change anything. Oh yes the signature thing, it doesn't change anything. Nobody checks the signature owner, never. And signed code would run unsigned injected code, in the same way it was doing the unsigned one.
If all entitlements are forced or removed you can't protect your code at all, apart adding time bombs to your monolithic executable. You can't create a VM or even a compiler.
Why would any OS X owner (people who probably appreciate safety) install shady software at all? It would be a bad idea to do so, if the system is as vulnerable and easy to manipulate as you claim it is.

Either way Mac conversion rates seem substantially higher than Windows, which indicates that Mac users simply buy what they like :)

Richard
Maybe my post was not clear enough?

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Richard_Synapse
KVRian
945 posts since 20 Dec, 2010

Re: Is macOS Catalina A Step Forward Against Software Piracy?

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:17 am

Zaphod (giancarlo) wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:43 am
Maybe my post was not clear enough?
It was clear- you're saying no, it makes no difference.

Our experience is simply the opposite. We believe it makes a substantial difference, i.e. less piracy not just for OS X 10.15 but ever since Gatekeeper was introduced. The ProTools AAX signing requirement has helped as well. YMMV :)

Richard
Synapse Audio Software - www.synapse-audio.com

Zaphod (giancarlo)
KVRAF
2495 posts since 23 Jun, 2006

Re: Is macOS Catalina A Step Forward Against Software Piracy?

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:46 am

I explained the no. It is not an opinion, it is a fact

About your point, it means nothing. Several teams are just focused on windows and there are historical tools there.
Gatekeeper is a joke if entitlements are not enforced. Basically you can inject the code before it is loaded, if you reverse engineer and you understand where it comes from. If unsigned code is loaded in memory it means the code was previously elsewhere, and it is not signed. But if apple deprecates those booleans I don't see a single way for creating a protection like ilok, for example. It would not be possible. It is not a suprise, they require it.
Here my forecast: they will allow entitlements for apps released on the app store, with the full apple business model on. It will be a long transition, but if I was the CEO I would move in this direction. A lot of money, a lot of control, and a lot of security.
Let's see if my forecast is good, we'll be back on it within few years.
Last edited by Zaphod (giancarlo) on Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Markus Krause
KVRist
217 posts since 2 Jul, 2018

Re: Is macOS Catalina A Step Forward Against Software Piracy?

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:02 am

With software notarisation in Catalina macOS is not longer an open platform. Apple now got full control about what software is allowed to run on their system and which not - at least for legit conmmercial software. Now Apple also has full control about the developers - Apple can force us in the future to sell with the app store only. Apple also can raise the $99 fee for beeing an Apple dev to a much higher price. They can completely control the market.
Last edited by Markus Krause on Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tone2 Audiosoftware https://www.tone2.com

Zaphod (giancarlo)
KVRAF
2495 posts since 23 Jun, 2006

Re: Is macOS Catalina A Step Forward Against Software Piracy?

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:04 am

Agreed with you here and in the other topic
Let's see what will happen.

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Richard_Synapse
KVRian
945 posts since 20 Dec, 2010

Re: Is macOS Catalina A Step Forward Against Software Piracy?

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:00 pm

Zaphod (giancarlo) wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:46 am
I explained the no. It is not an opinion, it is a fact
Less piracy = less cracks and/or less people using cracks. How Mac users will react to 10.15 and beyond is all speculation at this point.
Zaphod (giancarlo) wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:46 am
Here my forecast: they will allow entitlements for apps released on the app store, with the full apple business model on.
Makes sense from Apple's perspective yes.

Richard
Synapse Audio Software - www.synapse-audio.com

Markus Krause
KVRist
217 posts since 2 Jul, 2018

Re: Is macOS Catalina A Step Forward Against Software Piracy?

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:14 pm

My assumtion for the future:

1) Pirated Mac software will be bundeled with a video which explains how the additional security layer can be bypassed manually be the user

and

2) shell-scripts which bypass security are bundeled with the warez

and

3) A couple of developer accounts get hacked and the certificates are used to sign all kind of illegal stuff

and

4) Hackers will use stolen credit cards to create 'developer accounts'. Then they will sign their cracks
Tone2 Audiosoftware https://www.tone2.com

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