The Wagtunes Corner (Featuring My Best Yet)

[wagtunes]

Okay, just to show that I'm not against trying new things, this is what I came up with. I went back to my side project for this one because I didn't want to screw up my Blink CD.

Some things to note.

1. Haven't done a track like this, especially with me singing, in over 30 years.

2. I kept it simple. No overdubs. This could be played live by a 4 piece band, keyboard player, bass, drums and guitarist. In some places all that's going on is a piano. Only thing needed in addition is a small orchestra for the finale. Violins, Violas, Celli and Horns.

3. Parts are quanitized and parts are not. I won't say which is which. It should be obvious. My goal was to make the nojn quantized parts sound a decent as possible. I think I was fairly successful here but I'll leave that to your ears.

4. The piece itself has several time signatures and tempos including 7/4, 4/4 and 11/8.

Anyway, please critique away. Don't hold back. If you think it's a disjointed mess and it sucks, feel free to say so. This was solely an attempt to show that I'm open to trying new things. To that end, this was NOT easy to do and I wouldn't want to make a habit of it. Just being honest.

Here it is.

Time Traveler

Time traveler
What do you think of our world
Is it everything you thought it would be
Is it like the world you live in
Filled with violence, hatred and bigotry

Instrumental Break

Time traveler
Are you going back home
Have you had enough of this world of ours
When you return to your time
Hope you are safe in your ivory tower

Time traveler

https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim/time-traveler

[crimsonwarlock]

Sorry to say but I think you tried to bit of more than you can chew. The overall composition isn't bad at all, and I actually like your voice. If you would put some time into developing your singing, that could be a great asset to you. However, musical execution sounds very programmed/algorithmic to me and sound-production wise most sound like it is recorded in a bedroom, even the (I guess) virtual instruments.

If you want to emulate instruments, like electric guitars, the way you play the parts is more important then the actual sound. So using some (maybe even expensive) sample library of an electric guitar, but playing notes/chords that a guitar player would never play, will obviously not get you a sound like a real guitar player. The same goes for drums and to a certain extend even bass guitar. The only way to learn this is to listen to, and analyze, a lot of rock music. You are doing a Blink-inspired project, but did you actually listen in detail to their music and every stage of it; composition, arrangements, mixing and production? If you did, you need to do that again

I used to work with a guitarist but he is no longer available to me so I'm doing the virtual thing now, but I'm putting heaps of time into the guitar parts both in making sure I play them like a guitarist would, but also making sure I get a sound that resembles a tone-stack that a rock guitarist would use. Also watching countless videos of rock mixers/producers helped a lot (my last track uses a specific guitar production tip from Silvia Massy for example).

Making rock sound like 'Rock' as if a rock band is playing it, but with virtual instruments, is pretty hard anyway and surely very time consuming if you want to get it right. Your track just doesn't sound like you went that direction

But maybe this is all easy for me to say, as I've played live in different rock bands for several decades so these thing are kinda natural to me

[wagtunes]

Sorry to say....

But maybe this is all easy for me to say, as I've played live in different rock bands for several decades so these thing are kinda natural to me

Only thing I have to say in response is this. I'm going to be 62 in November. I have lived rock music since I was 7 years old.

So maybe I just don't have any talent.

I will leave it at that because wasting any more time on this is pointless. Thanks for the listen and the feedback.

Suggestion: You probably don't want to listen to anymore of my music as it's doubtful it's going to get much better at this point.

Have a nice day.

[jacqueslacouth]

Honestly, I don't even know what I just listened to but in some seriously wacked out way I actually liked parts of it...surprisingly, I liked your vocals which I normally hate but are always a 1000 X better than those bloody Vocaloids. I liked the strings bit at the end, I didn't like the piano stuff in the middle, but HEY! I listened right through and I generally have the attention span of a gnat and would never get through something that long...so, good job, old bloke.

[wagtunes]

Honestly, I don't even know what I just listened to but in some seriously wacked out way I actually liked parts of it...surprisingly, I liked your vocals which I normally hate but are always a 1000 X better than those bloody Vocaloids. I liked the strings bit at the end, I didn't like the piano stuff in the middle, but HEY! I listened right through and I generally have the attention span of a gnat and would never get through something that long...so, good job, old bloke.

I'm not sure what you listened to either but thanks for listening and for the feedback.

[crimsonwarlock]

I'm going to be 62 in November. I have lived rock music since I was 7 years old.

You have just a few years on me. To 'have lived rock' has no meaning without clarification of what you mean by that. Loads of people have 'heard' rock music during their life but not everyone did actually 'listen to it', if you know what I mean. And even then, listening in a technical manner is yet a whole other ball game.

So maybe I just don't have any talent.

Talent is overrated

Joking aside, talent makes things easy. If you are not that talented in a certain domain, it just means you have to work harder. It does not mean that it is impossible to get good at it. We live in a wonderful time with all those people making tutorial videos, let you peek in at professional mixing sessions and all that, and forums where people take the time to type lengthy replies to your questions

You just have to commit to doing the work that's needed

.... and come'on, 62...... your at the height of your time

[wagtunes]

I'm going to be 62 in November. I have lived rock music since I was 7 years old.

You have just a few years on me. To 'have lived rock' has no meaning without clarification of what you mean by that. Loads of people have 'heard' rock music during their life but not everyone did actually 'listen to it', if you know what I mean. And even then, listening in a technical manner is yet a whole other ball game.

So maybe I just don't have any talent.

Talent is overrated

Joking aside, talent makes things easy. If you are not that talented in a certain domain, it just means you have to work harder. It does not mean that it is impossible to get good at it. We live in a wonderful time with all those people making tutorial videos, let you peek in at professional mixing sessions and all that, and forums where people take the time to type lengthy replies to your questions

You just have to commit to doing the work that's needed

.... and come'on, 62...... your at the height of your time

Okay, then let me clarify my statement about "living rock"

I took guitar lessons. I took piano lessons. I picked up drums on my own. I would put on records of some of the toughest drum parts ever recorded and learn them note for note. Some songs took me months to learn just half a song.

I would break down tracks by each part, trying to hear what each person was playing. I would buy sheet music when I couldn't figure something out on my own.

I played in 2 bands as drummer in one and keyboard player in another. We played mostly weddings so we had to know just about every popular song out there.

I have a record collection that blows away most radio stations. In fact, most radio stations bore me to tears with their 300 song playlist that they call extensive.

I have listened to and analyzed everything from The Beatles (1964) to Blink 182 (late 90s)

Around the turn of the century I started to lose interest in current songs. Rock was pretty much dying anyway so there was no great loss. But I always kept up with studying the classics. I ever did cover versions of well known songs to see how close I would come, studying each part in detail.

And this is where I discovered that my performance ability was severely limited. While I knew every note of every song, I simply could not play them correctly, no matter how hard I tried. As a drummer, our keyboard player would get frustrated with me that I could just about keep a beat without a record to play to. In short, I never really developed a talent for playing live without that perfect record to play along with. So all that practicing, years and years and years of it, day after day after day, hour after hour after hour, was essentially for nothing. Well, maybe not for nothing. Imagine how horrible I'd have been had I not done all that practicing.

Here is a video of me playing in church just a year ago on Veteran's Day. It isn't horrible but it's nothing to write home about. And this was keeping it as simple as possible.



That's me on the left playing drums.

In short, my whole life has been about music, listening, playing, writing, you name it. I've written thousands of songs. I've been at this for 42 years and after all this time, what you hear now, that's as good as I've gotten.

Work harder? I can't work any harder than I have over the years. And I've left out half of what I've done including watching countless Youtube videos on just about everything you can imagine.

When I die, I can go to my grave with a clear conscience knowing that I did everything humanly possible to improve as a writer, performer and producer.

[crimsonwarlock]

In short, I never really developed a talent for playing live without that perfect record to play along with.

I think this is at the root of your problem; you've always 'quantized' yourself in some way. In all that you mention you never been in the situation where you actually had to interact with a band. This is the problem with cover bands that basically replay songs instead of actually interpreting them. I bet when you where in those bands you guys learned the parts simply by rehearsing them each on your own at home. That works for that kind of music/performance but composing, arranging and performing as a tight rock band takes a whole different approach. This is basically what I hear in your tracks; it doesn't sound like a band playing, it sounds like each part is played and then put together..... much how most wedding/cover bands operate. Those bands never actually rock on stage if you get my drift. This is what I meant before when I pointed at your arrangements.

In short, my whole life has been about music, listening, playing, writing, you name it. I've written thousands of songs. I've been at this for 42 years and after all this time, what you hear now, that's as good as I've gotten.

This should tell you something. Did it ever occur to you that maybe something is missing in that big list of all that you have done. You keep telling yourself that this should me more then enough, while you forget to ask yourself if these are actually the things that matter to get where you want to be.

And again, you're JUST 62, you still have plenty time left

[wagtunes]

In short, I never really developed a talent for playing live without that perfect record to play along with.

I think this is at the root of your problem; you've always 'quantized' yourself in some way. In all that you mention you never been in the situation where you actually had to interact with a band. This is the problem with cover bands that basically replay songs instead of actually interpreting them. I bet when you where in those bands you guys learned the parts simply by rehearsing them each on your own at home. That works for that kind of music/performance but composing, arranging and performing as a tight rock band takes a whole different approach. This is basically what I hear in your tracks; it doesn't sound like a band playing, it sounds like each part is played and then put together..... much how most wedding/cover bands operate. Those bands never actually rock on stage if you get my drift. This is what I meant before when I pointed at your arrangements.

In short, my whole life has been about music, listening, playing, writing, you name it. I've written thousands of songs. I've been at this for 42 years and after all this time, what you hear now, that's as good as I've gotten.

This should tell you something. Did it ever occur to you that maybe something is missing in that big list of all that you have done. You keep telling yourself that this should me more then enough, while you forget to ask yourself if these are actually the things that matter to get where you want to be.

And again, you're JUST 62, you still have plenty time left

Well, I don't know what else to do. So that leaves me with just doing what I do, enjoying what I do and not worrying about what other people think.

Like I said, you probably want to avoid listening to anymore of my music because this is as good as it's going to get until somebody sits me down and says "This is what's missing. This is what you have to do."

Enjoy the rest of your day.

[wagtunes]

Oh, and by the way. A group with a decent following in Europe and Asia liked my music enough to sign me to a contract as there writer and arranger and our first album together will be out sometime next year.

For whatever that's worth.

[JoeCat]

...
Well, I don't know what else to do. So that leaves me with just doing what I do, enjoying what I do and not worrying about what other people think.

Like I said, you probably want to avoid listening to anymore of my music because this is as good as it's going to get until somebody sits me down and says "This is what's missing. This is what you have to do."

Enjoy the rest of your day.

Everyone who puts their music out there cares at least a little (maybe worries is a strong word) about what other people think, especially if they're posting music to a forum where people will comment and respond. But I get the idea that, for criticism to be constructive, it has to be somewhat specific - it's not helpful if someone produces hip hop and gets criticized for their style of hip-hop 'cause a listener doesn't like it.

So in that spirit, I'll stick to two specific things:

A positive thing: You're vocals are quite decent. Everyone's not going to like everyone's voice or style. I love Rush but Geddy Lee's voice makes me want to stick my fingers in my ears until they come out the other side; on the other hand Bono gives me chills. Both are obviously been successful lead vocalists. Starting with the fact that you sing on pitch and have some nice modulations, I'd suggest sticking with your own voice rather than the vocaloids. Vocals can always be improved (good vocal coach), but at least you have something to work with.

A negative thing that's easily improved: Round-robin your drum hits - if your sample library doesn't do it you may be able do it manually. Most libraries have multiple samples per velocity but for kick (and especially snare) and cymbals (especially hi-hat), you want to have subtle variety in your main hits. I record live drums in the studio. We do use drum replacement software to punch up the hits (I'm not Hal Blaine; I'm not even his pinky toe). This gives even volume before the compressor hits. However, even perfect drummers will hit slightly off-center, kick's vibrate a bit different, hat's especially sound a little different even closed tight and smacked in the same spot. Round-robin samplers give you this - you don't want to get variety by just changing velocity; that seems to be a rookie mistake.
To do it manually, you can take the sample at the velocity you're mostly sitting at (outside of fills, ghost notes, etc.), and apply a tiny bit of notch/peak filtering, etc. For example, a slightly off-center hit may produce more ring, different buzz. You can bump a ring frequency up a tiny bit, etc. It's a bit of work but once you do it and you can re-use. With the kick you can manipulate the mids. etc. without touching the fundamental - solid kick every-time, but a bit different.
Hats are tougher - sometimes I'll take the open hat sound, shorten the sample, and mix that in a bit, so it sounds like my left foot got a bit lazy. Do it with some groove (like every third hit) and it simulates the way drummer's left foot naturally keeps time by slightly opening the hat, even if it's not a "hard" open.

A lot to take in, but once you get it down you can seriously humanize your drum sound without losing impact.

Of course, this comes down to the one main thing I thing all of your "fans" here ( ) agree on: Reduce the quantity of your output a bit, and spend a little more time on each peice - that's something any artist can do.

Good luck!

[wagtunes]

...
Well, I don't know what else to do. So that leaves me with just doing what I do, enjoying what I do and not worrying about what other people think.

Like I said, you probably want to avoid listening to anymore of my music because this is as good as it's going to get until somebody sits me down and says "This is what's missing. This is what you have to do."

Enjoy the rest of your day.

Everyone who puts their music out there cares at least a little (maybe worries is a strong word) about what other people think, especially if they're posting music to a forum where people will comment and respond. But I get the idea that, for criticism to be constructive, it has to be somewhat specific - it's not helpful if someone produces hip hop and gets criticized for their style of hip-hop 'cause a listener doesn't like it.

So in that spirit, I'll stick to two specific things:

A positive thing: You're vocals are quite decent. Everyone's not going to like everyone's voice or style. I love Rush but Geddy Lee's voice makes me want to stick my fingers in my ears until they come out the other side; on the other hand Bono gives me chills. Both are obviously been successful lead vocalists. Starting with the fact that you sing on pitch and have some nice modulations, I'd suggest sticking with your own voice rather than the vocaloids. Vocals can always be improved (good vocal coach), but at least you have something to work with.

A negative thing that's easily improved: Round-robin your drum hits - if your sample library doesn't do it you may be able do it manually. Most libraries have multiple samples per velocity but for kick (and especially snare) and cymbals (especially hi-hat), you want to have subtle variety in your main hits. I record live drums in the studio. We do use drum replacement software to punch up the hits (I'm not Hal Blaine; I'm not even his pinky toe). This gives even volume before the compressor hits. However, even perfect drummers will hit slightly off-center, kick's vibrate a bit different, hat's especially sound a little different even closed tight and smacked in the same spot. Round-robin samplers give you this - you don't want to get variety by just changing velocity; that seems to be a rookie mistake.
To do it manually, you can take the sample at the velocity you're mostly sitting at (outside of fills, ghost notes, etc.), and apply a tiny bit of notch/peak filtering, etc. For example, a slightly off-center hit may produce more ring, different buzz. You can bump a ring frequency up a tiny bit, etc. It's a bit of work but once you do it and you can re-use. With the kick you can manipulate the mids. etc. without touching the fundamental - solid kick every-time, but a bit different.
Hats are tougher - sometimes I'll take the open hat sound, shorten the sample, and mix that in a bit, so it sounds like my left foot got a bit lazy. Do it with some groove (like every third hit) and it simulates the way drummer's left foot naturally keeps time by slightly opening the hat, even if it's not a "hard" open.

A lot to take in, but once you get it down you can seriously humanize your drum sound without losing impact.

Of course, this comes down to the one main thing I thing all of your "fans" here ( ) agree on: Reduce the quantity of your output a bit, and spend a little more time on each peice - that's something any artist can do.

Good luck!

Sorry, but I gotta crack up on the comment about the drum kit, using round robins. I'm using what's supposed to be the best drum kit out there right now, MODO drums. So if I made THEM sound bad, boy, I gotta be pretty God damned awful.

Like I said, I'm just gonna do what I love doing and not worry, care, whatever words you want to use, what others think. Because some people will always like something I do and some people will always not like something I do. You pretty much said it yourself with the Geddy Lee (who I absolutely love) comment.

But thanks for the listen and the feedback.

[crimsonwarlock]

Reduce the quantity of your output a bit, and spend a little more time on each peice

+1, Really good advice

Look at the One Synth Challenge here on KVR, many contestants have to work really hard to finish a track within the constraint of one month. Most OSC productions are pretty awesome though. My last track took a lot longer then that, just for the guitar stuff I burned through at least a full week in hours. I have a hard time actually getting a full album done in a year, so there's that

[crimsonwarlock]

Like I said, I'm just gonna do what I love doing and not worry, care, whatever words you want to use, what others think

So why asking for feedback here on the forum then







Well, just do what you want to do, it's your life after all. Have fun doing it

[wagtunes]

Like I said, I'm just gonna do what I love doing and not worry, care, whatever words you want to use, what others think

So why asking for feedback here on the forum then







Well, just do what you want to do, it's your life after all. Have fun doing it

There's a difference between not wanting the world to hear your music and not caring what they think of it. Sure I want my music to be heard but I'll be damned if I'm gonna drive myself crazy trying to please people who...

Don't like my singing
Don't like Vocaloid
Don't like my piano playing
Don't like my drumming
Don't like my guitar playing
Don't like my bass playing
Don't like my orchestrations
Don't like my mixes
Don't like my music itself
Don't like my lyrics
Don't like the genres I write for
Don't like how long my songs are
Don't like how short my songs are
Don't like my choice of synths
Don't like that I use synths
Don't like that I use sampled instruments

And so on. There's always going to be something about what I do that somebody won't like. So why care? The people who like what I do, they make it worth while. And if that's just ONE person, that's good enough for me.

I just got a whole band to like my stuff. And if I didn't put my music out there, that would have never happened.

That's why I do it.

But do I care if you or John Doe or whoever doesn't like something that I do? Not in the least. Doesn't mean I'm not going to try to improve. Just means I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Hope this sufficiently answers your question.