KVR Audio

Emerald Tablet · Post by **Emerald Tablet** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:34 pm

ow ok

sorry about it.
no crime intended

i`ll stick to my own samples

griels · Post by **griels** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:41 pm

olepro wrote:You are right guys!

I will keep my downloads and my BIG work on these samples on my own harddisk.

Hey, if Zildjian gives the thumbs up, then you're welcome to share this stuff here. Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just telling you what the law, and the KVR Forum Rules, say

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:53 pm

Btw, all legal issues aside, they should be way more than 312MB in Wave format. 173MB is the size of all of them in MP3 format.

Whether I'll use them or not - we'll see. I usually don't need cymbals too often, but the HiHats might come in handy.

However, IMO it's up to oneself to use them or not - after all Zildjian didn't put a copyright notice on their site and I don't think they're dumb idiots, so they could (or even should) perhaps expect something like this to happen.
But yes, it might be a good idea to at least tell them what people are doing with those samples.
And I also agree that these samples shouldn't be shared as long as things aren't proof.

olepro · Post by **olepro** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:36 pm

I didn´t download all the files.
I have 202 cymbals from the site and that´s way enough for me.

About Zildjian, i really don´t think they care about copy rights, because they do sell hardware cymbals to drummers and not samples for computer musicians.

So it wont hurt their sales anyway.

griels · Post by **griels** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:52 pm

olepro wrote:I didn´t download all the files.
I have 202 cymbals from the site and that´s way enough for me.

About Zildjian, i really don´t think they care about copy rights, because they do sell hardware cymbals to drummers and not samples for computer musicians.

So it wont hurt their sales anyway.

So sample technology doesn't hurt the sales of acoustic equipment? I've met a few people who would disagree with that.

freeztar · Post by **freeztar** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:13 pm

it depends.
You can sample the hell out of a guitar, with different velocities, frills, slides etc., but I'm still going to buy a guitar. I'm sure most drummers would agree with this sentiment, and let's face it, it's the drummers who are buying the cymbals, not the techno geeks using nothing but samples.
I definitly think all the talk of rhodes emulation around here will spawn some real rhodes buying.

There are also instances where sampling CAN hurt hardware sales, but I think this is offset by the publicity gained. If you use all these zildjan samples (assuming you can), then chances are that if you ever decide to buy a real cymbal you will choose zildjan.
btw, I'm looking forward to the verdict on these.

neverwhere2012 · Post by **neverwhere2012** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:41 pm

kind of ridiculous to think that zildjian could actually file a suit against someone using a sample clipped from on mp3 on their site. if it was a rhythmic loop, i could see it, but a) they would have to find the song, b) determine that it is in fact their cymbal that was being used in the sampled material, c) determine that you do not, in fact PHYSICALLY OWN said cymbal(s), d) determine that said sample was derived from a mp3 on their website and not, say, a recording by an artist featuring a drummer playing zildjian cymbals.

should they determine any of this to be the appropriate case, then the only question that matters is, how much money is the composition generating. that is, if they have any legal say in the matter.

look at it this way. you're a drummer, you play in some big up-and-coming rock band out in LA. you record your first major label album using a DW kit and Zildjian cymbals. the record goes multi-platinum. do you then have to pay royalties to zildjian or DW for using their equipment on the recording? NO.

it's sampled hits from acoustic instruments, it's not riffs, loops, progressions, melodies, etc. etc. think about the plethora of artists who have built careers using sampler kits constructed from hits chopped off of various vinyl or other recordings. so yea, downloading and chopping up these mp3's is probably about as harmless as it can be, i DOUBT that spreading around the cymbal samples chopped into individual hits to load into your sampler is infringing on anyone's rights, nor is it killing anyone's sales. i mean, it's not like you're walking into the cymbal room at guitar center with a set of sticks/mallets and a minidisc recorder. likewise, i'm pretty sure zildjian is aware of the fact that the electronic music community has yet to create a dongle and a plugin that will use the samples to fashion the actual cymbal for free.

so while zildjian, upon being alerted of this, may re-encode the audio to a non-downloadable format or some other similar action, i seriously doubt there is anything they could or would do legally about the matter.

pitchdrifter · Post by **pitchdrifter** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:53 pm

they made it, they own it. Just because they let you hear it doesn't mean you can use it. Its meant for you to hear it only. Further use requires written consent from the copyright owner (i.e. them).
Example, Pro7 media (german TV station) used stuff from my website without any permission in their shows. They ended up paying what I invoiced them. Not because they're kind but because they had to. Hope that gets it across.

best

Markus

griels · Post by **griels** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 12:00 am

neverwhere2012 wrote: it's sampled hits from acoustic instruments, it's not riffs, loops, progressions, melodies, etc. etc. think about the plethora of artists who have built careers using sampler kits constructed from hits chopped off of various vinyl or other recordings.

Sampled hits have equal right to copyright to sampled riffs. Scarbee J'Slap'n'fingered is equally as copyrighted as a Marcus Miller track. It doesn't make a difference.

neverwhere2012 wrote: so yea, downloading and chopping up these mp3's is probably about as harmless as it can be, i DOUBT that spreading around the cymbal samples chopped into individual hits to load into your sampler is infringing on anyone's rights, nor is it killing anyone's sales. i mean, it's not like you're walking into the cymbal room at guitar center with a set of sticks/mallets and a minidisc recorder. likewise, i'm pretty sure zildjian is aware of the fact that the electronic music community has yet to create a dongle and a plugin that will use the samples to fashion the actual cymbal for free.

I can see both sides of the arguments here. I'm not willing to be presumptious either way. It's up to Zildjian to decide how they want their samples used. After all, the samples are their property.

Just to quote an earlier post on this issue:

http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 680#744680

Hope Zildjian get in touch soon

neverwhere2012 · Post by **neverwhere2012** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:40 am

the point i was trying to make is can you honestly listen to a single cymbal sound sequenced within a drum track which is contained within a full mix and identify it as "oh, that's a zildjian k series blah blah blah". with samples of affordable acoustic instruments, especially percussive instruments, there is no effective way to discern whether or not you own that instrument - or in this case - cymbal, or have legal access to it some way or another whether it be through a friend, co-worker or a school. unless of course you run around spouting off about where you got the samples from. and in the end, are you making any money off it?

and yes, if you have ripped off something like a bass sample library that is highly recognizable, or use the THX sound effect without permission or take samples from, say, the bosendorfer 290 library, then you aren't getting away with it. but it's not like zildjian cymbals, on the whole, are these highly regarded classic pieces that fetch unheard of amounts of money. zildjian is a popular brand, a lot of people have and use zildjian cymbals. i'm not gonna argue further because it's not going to change anyone's mind, but i just don't see any sense in the paranoia surrounding this. i mean, when was the last time you listened to any song and were able to say "that guy has totally got to be using sabian [insert model here] hats and paiste [blah blah] crashes" without any prior information on the drummer or his actual kit?

just trying to add a little counterpoint

realmarco · Post by **realmarco** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:29 am

Btw why the f**k do you lawyer cock suckiers got to gain from annoying us with your over inflated sense on concept of intellectual rights

unless you work for them...oooh thats it isn't it

has zyldjian(whatever) lost income from sampling hell ya! but a drummer will want real cymbals anyways .

so they don't care about you techno produssssAAAZZZZ . No way in hell is "Kriminal" gonna buy some harware cymbals Ha! so zildjian doens't even care about him

have they copyrighted the samples on their site ?..no!
have they mentionned anything about copyright pertaning to audio clips of their product in action? No

Then shut up about it !

go back making music instead of going on moral crusades about benign stuff

Kriminal · Post by **Kriminal** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:12 am

realmarco wrote:
so they don't care about you techno produssssAAAZZZZ . No way in hell is "Kriminal" gonna buy some harware cymbals Ha! so zildjian doens't even care about him

Nobody cares

NAD · Post by **NAD** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:37 am

So basically, I think what realmarco is trying to say is this: Why hasn't anyone downloaded all the files, made the soundfonts, zipped them, and uploaded them to their website yet? Well? What are you waiting for? I'm taking to you!

olepro · Post by **olepro** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:47 am

Talk talk talk....

Get your asses to the Zildjian site and get these great samples, and buy some real ones too if you are a drummer

They really ARE very good samples. Dont forget that

duncanparsons · Post by **duncanparsons** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:56 am

legal issues aside, samples cymbals don't honestly replace real ones... I think zildjian have probably been intentionally coy about the copyright, it creates a buzz, and gets people to look at their site..

I'm a real drummer, I play real drums. I have Paiste, Sabian, Zildjian, etc, but I have to say my favourite are my classic 5star zyns!

Thing with any sample is that it's static, and cymbals in particular are affected by this. Only the most incredibly robotic performer will be able to get the exactly same sound out a cymbal twice, and when your miked the phasing of a swirling cymbal can mess it all up a bit more. To get a reasonabe amount of realism, I often add a gentle chorus or flange to my cymbal samples to attempt to capture some of that, and playing with velocitys help - even on a non-multisampled kit.

I will dl a selection of these, but tbh, I'm already pretty happy with the few hundred cymbal samples I already have... One thing I hate is auditioning 50 rides/crashes/etc.. after a while they all start to sound the same! In a shop, it's different - you can strike different parts, bell it, etc..

don't really know what I'm rambling on about! normally when I post to a thread, it dies..!

DSP

CYMBAL SAMPLES !!