Disappointment in hardware synths

Anything about hardware musical instruments.
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BlackWinny wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:50 pm
foosnark wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:59 pm
roman.i wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:56 pm Finally, I came to conclusion that a pure analog synth is more a toy than a workhorse device.
Go listen to Switched-On Bach, or better yet, any of Isao Tomita's works from 1974-1982 and you'll hear what "a toy" can do. That is... with skill, understanding of synthesis and sound design, and practice, and a little effort (it's not even that much effort).
:clap:

Excellent reply, foosnark !

And we could add many great musicians who still love these old analog synths from the pre-preset era and who today keep on making music using them in their tracks (and sometimes ONLY them in some tracks) : Rick Wakeman, Jean-Michel Jarre, Vangelis, John Carpenter, Jordan Rudess, Ryuichi Sakamoto, Kitaro, Klaus Schulze, Patrick Moraz, Paul Haslinger (in many of his movie soundtracks as well as in his Tangerine Dream parts), Johannes Schmoelling (idem and in many TV signature tunes), Tim Blake, Peter Gabriel, Vince Clarke, Hans Zimmer, Christopher Franke, Richard Tandy, Roger Joseph Manning Jr, Paul Meany, Nick Rhodes (I really like this guy!), Suzanne Ciani, Michael Cretu (Enigma, you don't know?), Francis Rimbert, Jónsi (from Sigur Rós), Claudio Simonetti (from the Goblin band, known for their crazy soundtracks made with old analog synths), Jerome Froese (Edgar's son), all the Kraftwerk members...

roman.i, would you say that all these famous composers and producers consider the old analog synths, even from before the preset era, as toys for entertainments ?!?

Were (are still) the Analogue Systems RS-Integrator, the Aries 300, the ARP 2600, the ARP Odyssey, ARP Solina String Synthesizer, the Doepfer modular, the EMS VCS3 and Synthi AKS, the Farfisa Syntorchestra (Klaus Schulze's fetish instrument for years), the Korg Delta, the Korg Mono/Poly, the Korg MS-20 (and even the bigger MS-50), the huge Korg PS-3300, the Moog Modular, the Minimoog, the Roland SH-5, the Roland SH-7, the Roland SH-101, the Roland System 100 (and even the huge System 700), the SCi Pro-One, the Steiner-Parker Synthacon, the Yamaha CS-80, the huge Yamaha GX-1, etc. only toys for entertainments ?!?

Not only all these synths were widely used by famous musicians of their epoch... but they are still used by great musicians, composers and producers, of today ! And they don't seem to think that they are just toys ! Their use is indeed not as easy as with the synths of today, they need a different organization in the production methods as well as in the time to spend with them to make tracks... but they are definitely not toys at all and are still fully effective instruments for real musicians !

There are today too many people who are probably not but "home musicians" and just "internet producers" and perhaps mainly "forum musicians" who don't go and see what really great musicians still do today... and who think that the world began only when they were born.
:roll: :pray:

And in addition, we can add a precision : the fact that a synth is analog doesn't mean that it hasn't any preset system. All those I cited above didn't have any preset memory (just a few had a very rudimentary and very partial and extremely limited memory, as the CS-80 for example), but many analog synths had digitally controlled analog devices (a DCO is not a digital oscillator as many people think, a DCO is a real analog oscillator but digitally controlled, same for DCF, same thing for DCA, same thing for many DSP sections, etc.) and some other new synths didn't get the digital controls but another type of very accurate analog control, and hence while pure analog synths concerning the signal path they were capable of much better stability but also were capable of using built-in memory for presets. That's what made possible the creation of a new generation of many new analog synths as the SCi Prophet-5, the Roland Juno-60, the Roland Jupiter-8, the Roland JX8P and JX10, the ARP Quadra, the Korg Polysix, the Korg Poly-61 and Poly-800, the Moog Voyager, the Moog Memorymoog, several Oberheim models, several Casio models (they didn't make only the digital CZ-series, they made also great analog synths based on real analog components and circuits but very cleverly digitally controlled) etc. And there are still today many true analog synths (not using an analog modellisation but using true analog components) which are nowadays released every year, as some new Korg analog synths, some new Arturia analog synths, some new Moog analog synths, etc.
you forgot bruce :cry:

https://youtu.be/GrL_JzsvpT0

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BlackWinny wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:50 pm... several Casio models (they didn't make only the digital CZ-series, they made also great analog synths based on real analog components and circuits but very cleverly digitally controlled) etc.
i have (or rather the kids do) an HT3000, but wouldn't call it a great analogue synth (just the filter iirc)

what models were you thinking of?

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vurt wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:54 pm
BlackWinny wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:50 pm
foosnark wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:59 pm
roman.i wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:56 pm Finally, I came to conclusion that a pure analog synth is more a toy than a workhorse device.
Go listen to Switched-On Bach, or better yet, any of Isao Tomita's works from 1974-1982 and you'll hear what "a toy" can do. That is... with skill, understanding of synthesis and sound design, and practice, and a little effort (it's not even that much effort).
:clap:

Excellent reply, foosnark !

And we could add many great musicians who still love these old analog synths from the pre-preset era and who today keep on making music using them in their tracks (and sometimes ONLY them in some tracks) : Rick Wakeman, Jean-Michel Jarre, Vangelis, John Carpenter, Jordan Rudess, Ryuichi Sakamoto, Kitaro, Klaus Schulze, Patrick Moraz, Paul Haslinger (in many of his movie soundtracks as well as in his Tangerine Dream parts), Johannes Schmoelling (idem and in many TV signature tunes), Tim Blake, Peter Gabriel, Vince Clarke, Hans Zimmer, Christopher Franke, Richard Tandy, Roger Joseph Manning Jr, Paul Meany, Nick Rhodes (I really like this guy!), Suzanne Ciani, Michael Cretu (Enigma, you don't know?), Francis Rimbert, Jónsi (from Sigur Rós), Claudio Simonetti (from the Goblin band, known for their crazy soundtracks made with old analog synths), Jerome Froese (Edgar's son), all the Kraftwerk members...

roman.i, would you say that all these famous composers and producers consider the old analog synths, even from before the preset era, as toys for entertainments ?!?

Were (are still) the Analogue Systems RS-Integrator, the Aries 300, the ARP 2600, the ARP Odyssey, ARP Solina String Synthesizer, the Doepfer modular, the EMS VCS3 and Synthi AKS, the Farfisa Syntorchestra (Klaus Schulze's fetish instrument for years), the Korg Delta, the Korg Mono/Poly, the Korg MS-20 (and even the bigger MS-50), the huge Korg PS-3300, the Moog Modular, the Minimoog, the Roland SH-5, the Roland SH-7, the Roland SH-101, the Roland System 100 (and even the huge System 700), the SCi Pro-One, the Steiner-Parker Synthacon, the Yamaha CS-80, the huge Yamaha GX-1, etc. only toys for entertainments ?!?

Not only all these synths were widely used by famous musicians of their epoch... but they are still used by great musicians, composers and producers, of today ! And they don't seem to think that they are just toys ! Their use is indeed not as easy as with the synths of today, they need a different organization in the production methods as well as in the time to spend with them to make tracks... but they are definitely not toys at all and are still fully effective instruments for real musicians !

There are today too many people who are probably not but "home musicians" and just "internet producers" and perhaps mainly "forum musicians" who don't go and see what really great musicians still do today... and who think that the world began only when they were born.
:roll: :pray:

And in addition, we can add a precision : the fact that a synth is analog doesn't mean that it hasn't any preset system. All those I cited above didn't have any preset memory (just a few had a very rudimentary and very partial and extremely limited memory, as the CS-80 for example), but many analog synths had digitally controlled analog devices (a DCO is not a digital oscillator as many people think, a DCO is a real analog oscillator but digitally controlled, same for DCF, same thing for DCA, same thing for many DSP sections, etc.) and some other new synths didn't get the digital controls but another type of very accurate analog control, and hence while pure analog synths concerning the signal path they were capable of much better stability but also were capable of using built-in memory for presets. That's what made possible the creation of a new generation of many new analog synths as the SCi Prophet-5, the Roland Juno-60, the Roland Jupiter-8, the Roland JX8P and JX10, the ARP Quadra, the Korg Polysix, the Korg Poly-61 and Poly-800, the Moog Voyager, the Moog Memorymoog, several Oberheim models, several Casio models (they didn't make only the digital CZ-series, they made also great analog synths based on real analog components and circuits but very cleverly digitally controlled) etc. And there are still today many true analog synths (not using an analog modellisation but using true analog components) which are nowadays released every year, as some new Korg analog synths, some new Arturia analog synths, some new Moog analog synths, etc.
you forgot bruce :cry:

https://youtu.be/GrL_JzsvpT0
Sorry... He came out of my mind.
:oops:



:D
Build your life everyday as if you would live for a thousand years. Marvel at the Life everyday as if you would die tomorrow.
I'm now severely diseased since September 2018.

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you'll want this then for him to come back in...

https://youtu.be/jW1SOZQ_J8k

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AnX wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:07 pm
BlackWinny wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:50 pm... several Casio models (they didn't make only the digital CZ-series, they made also great analog synths based on real analog components and circuits but very cleverly digitally controlled) etc.
i have (or rather the kids do) an HT3000, but wouldn't call it a great analogue synth (just the filter iirc)

what models were you thinking of?
If you don't use it... I suggest you to sell it and to find a HT-6000. It is a totally different beast. As much as the 3000 was unremarkable, the 6000 was a monster, technically but also musically. And I write 6000... not 600. I was living in 1989 in a provincial town in the South of France, and having bought another synth just a few weeks before, my wallet was empty and I couldn't take it, and it is a friend who took it (we both have always loved to play or compose "Ambient" and "New Age" musics and Cosmic-rock and Berlin School Krautrock styles, but this synth is also able to many use in EDM musics). The friend I talk about is not only a friend, I'm the godfather of his three children. He used it a lot at these years when I was in this town and I was astounded by the incredible sounds outed from that beast, and the most recently I met him again, in 2012, even having also other synths he was still using it very frequently, and never met any technical problem with it, having just replaced the internal batteries.

And one of the remarkable features of this synth, in addition to its full synthesizer part, is its full, very comprehensive, "arranger" part, making it twice a complex synthesizer (4 DCOs, 64 waveforms, ring-mod, 8 filters, a totally independent signal flow and ADSR for the noise source, 3 split points on the keyboards, 3 levels of chorus) and an organ, with multitimbrality (4 channels, independent velocities for each channel), many rhythms, totally programmable accompaniments, expansion cards, etc. as are digital workstations and complex arrangers. It is one of the first and quite rare models of analog workstations.

Image

Image

Some demos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmtw8tP-KFo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBDtDy1urfQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEXlTOo8W7g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ExNv9zjqSo


Anyway, the purpose is mainly here to show the noobs (and the OP) that analog synths can be very complex synths, and can have many sections, MIDI channels, multitimbrality, preset storages, etc.
:D
Last edited by BlackWinny on Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Build your life everyday as if you would live for a thousand years. Marvel at the Life everyday as if you would die tomorrow.
I'm now severely diseased since September 2018.

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vurt wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:54 pm you forgot bruce :cry:

Image
Yeah, how could anyone forget Brucie?

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Forgotten wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:37 pm
vurt wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:54 pm you forgot bruce :cry:

Image
Yeah, how could anyone forget Brucie?
everybody talks like they got something to say
but nothing comes out when they moves their lips
just a bunch of gibberish
because they forget about bruce
good game!

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I forgot that Dre was such a big Brucie fan

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Forgotten wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:43 pm I forgot that Dre was such a big Brucie fan
it's like snoop loving corrie.
rappers are odd.

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or seeing jay zed on antiques roadshow, although i dont think he was pleased to discover "bling vases" arent a thing.

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not a rapper, but corey from slipknot popped up on qi once :shrug:

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vurt wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:23 pm not a rapper, but corey from slipknot popped up on qi once :shrug:
Great episode too. He looks like a really nice guy despite me hating Slipknot.
"I was wondering if you'd like to try Magic Mushrooms"
"Oooh I dont know. Sounds a bit scary"
"It's not scary. You just lose a sense of who you are and all that sh!t"

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Mushy Mushy wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:26 pm
vurt wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:23 pm not a rapper, but corey from slipknot popped up on qi once :shrug:
Great episode too. He looks like a really nice guy despite me hating Slipknot.
yeah, im not a fan, but i met a couple of them years back at work. out of the masks they seem like lovely blokes :hihi:

always had that with the really hardcore bands too, look for any interviews with carcass or napalm death, paradise lost, godflesh...
all really soft well spoken chaps :lol:

(ok some are a bit brummy but still well spoken)

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todd_r wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:44 pm OP is right, go into any professional studio and all you'll find is a laptop, zero hardware.
You may be right, but on the other hand: a band never uses computers (and if they do they are booed of the stage). And a band cannot properly practice without hardware. Most people who are not in a band use hardware because they think hands on is more fun for your hobby. Not because it's more practical. A PC with some big screens, a good Midi keyboard and VST's is more practical in the studio. And it's cheaper, ha ha. :wink:

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DJ Warmonger wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:04 pm Same thoughts.

Well, I picked Make Noise 0-Coast, which is certainly not the workhorse synth, rather experiemental contraption.

Still, I figured out to record anything, I need to already know what to record - need to have melody and progressions in place and just tweak the knobs. Otherwise, whatever I record will end up in a trash,. as it's not possible to change the melody anymore once it's recorded :/

Maybe if I had sequencer, things would work quicker. But Ableton shoudl already cover all sequencer needs I could think of.

All in all, I took several attempts to get track running with 0-Coast, but didn't get far as yet. I took a break for now and decided to learn stuff (psytrance) with more conventional setup.
I would definitely consider giving it another try. A fun way of getting a psytrance track started is getting a sound palette of weird and unpredictable noises together first. Setting a sequence running through a hardware synth, tweaking the knobs, recording a bunch of audio and cutting it up was a refreshing way of working after years of working in the piano roll with soft synths.

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