IS FM synthesis your goto?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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gentleclockdivider
KVRAF
2427 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:47 am

double post
Last edited by gentleclockdivider on Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Soul calibrating ..frequencies

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gentleclockdivider
KVRAF
2427 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent

Re: IS FM synthesis your goto?

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:48 am

GRUMP wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:43 am


I tried to reproduce it with Zebra 2 and didn´t even get close. The same 3 OP Setup in Zebra sounded horrible, because the FM Amount in Zebra was higher with a Setting of 2 already. ZEB has a completely different Implememtation of FM. To say it positive: ZEB seems better for "consistant" Sounds, but its FM is simply horrible if you are looking for Softness.
Hmmm. zebra does not have a completely different implementation of fm , it's phase modulation just like the original dx and other dx synths
Yes , the fm amount scaling is different in zebra ( a much higher amount ) ,
And under certain conditions (depending on algoritms ) , the self feedback fm amount and the level volume knob should be assigned to the same controller .
For example , lets say an original dx7 operator is sef feedbacking itself ( with a decaying envelope to zero sustain ) directly to the output
The result will be a sawish waveform (feedback) going to sine (decreasing gain amount in feedback loop )
Since the operator envelope controls the amount of gain going back into the feedbaack loop , but also the amount of gain directly to the output , resulting in decreasing output volume
In zebra , when decaying the self feedback amount it would also go from saw to sine , but there would be no decrease in amplitude output, the volume knob on zebra fm module is independent of the fm knob .
To remedy this , you should assign both the fm knob and operator level to a mmix ( controlled by an envelope of choice ) .
That is the main difference , because original dx synths didn't have an FM amount knob to begin with ( it's the operator output level that defined the amount of moduation )
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GRUMP
KVRist
173 posts since 11 Jun, 2019 from Darmstadt, Germany

Re: IS FM synthesis your goto?

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:31 am

gentleclockdivider wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:48 am
GRUMP wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:43 am


I tried to reproduce it with Zebra 2 and didn´t even get close. The same 3 OP Setup in Zebra sounded horrible, because the FM Amount in Zebra was higher with a Setting of 2 already. ZEB has a completely different Implememtation of FM. To say it positive: ZEB seems better for "consistant" Sounds, but its FM is simply horrible if you are looking for Softness.
Hmmm. zebra does not have a completely different implementation of fm , it's phase modulation just like the original dx and other dx synths
My ears tell me sth. else. And the Options, too. Didn´t the DX just have Sine Waves? And do the Results of setting Paramaters REALLY compare?
gentleclockdivider wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:48 am
Yes , the fm amount scaling is different in zebra ( a much higher amount ) ,
And under certain conditions (depending on algoritms ) , the self feedback fm amount and the level volume knob should be assigned to the same controller .
For example , lets say an original dx7 operator is sef feedbacking itself ( with a decaying envelope to zero sustain ) directly to the output
The result will be a sawish waveform (feedback) going to sine (decreasing gain amount in feedback loop )
Since the operator envelope controls the amount of gain going back into the feedbaack loop , but also the amount of gain directly to the output , resulting in decreasing output volume
In zebra , when decaying the self feedback amount it would also go from saw to sine , but there would be no decrease in amplitude output, the volume knob on zebra fm module is independent of the fm knob .
To remedy this , you should assign both the fm knob and operator level to a mmix ( controlled by an envelope of choice ) .
That is the main difference , because original dx synths didn't have an FM amount knob to begin with ( it's the operator output level that defined the amount of moduation )
I have tested it with 3 OPs 16.5 - 1 - 1, no Feedback, low Levels/Amount. No Specials. The Results were completely different and ZEB was horrible in Comparison. It´s HARD. HARD FM. Even if the Model and Values are the same - the Sound is also determined by the "Implementation" itself and all those little Descision on the Way.

I have always asked myself whre those Yamaha-like soft-siny FM Sounds can be found and I just realized that you´ll not find them in ZEB. No "smoky Sines" and "colored Glass" here :(

But thanks - I´ll check that out later, although I assume that using an othe Synth is probably easier. You can´t make a Zebra a Fawn!°
Sound Design - VOX, Airy, Choir

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gentleclockdivider
KVRAF
2427 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent

Re: IS FM synthesis your goto?

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:49 am

Yes the dx only had sine waves only , why asking ?
Are you aware you can get a square and a saw wave out of dx ?
Square wave ; modulator set to ratio 2 :1 ( just double of the carrier ) with a tiny bit of self feedback going into a carrier set to 1:1
On the tg 77 , sy77,sy99 you can adjust the phase of the operator so you can create pure triangle waves ( same procedure for square --> 2:1 going into 1:1 but phase of modulator is adjusted )
To get a saw wave , just one operator feedbacking itself is enough
And please don't throw in words like HARD FM , what does that even mean ??

Tip : throw in an operator in between set a low hz value for chorus/phasing effects
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pdxindy
KVRAF
16318 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: IS FM synthesis your goto?

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:15 am

simmo75 wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:15 pm
You won’t regret it! :)
When I travel I take it with me, you can get full pieces together on it and it’s built really well.
The Digitone arrive today. I'm happy with the sound after playing for an hour or two... including with all fx off. It has a sort of pleasing and warmish sound while still being FM. My initial impression is that it seems easy to get sounds I like. And of course all the possibilities with the sequencer and p-locks is exciting.

I was a bit worried that the buttons would be too cramped but it is okay.

simmo75
KVRAF
1799 posts since 25 Mar, 2016 from Seattle

Re: IS FM synthesis your goto?

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:42 am

pdxindy wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:15 am
simmo75 wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:15 pm
You won’t regret it! :)
When I travel I take it with me, you can get full pieces together on it and it’s built really well.
The Digitone arrive today. I'm happy with the sound after playing for an hour or two... including with all fx off. It has a sort of pleasing and warmish sound while still being FM. My initial impression is that it seems easy to get sounds I like. And of course all the possibilities with the sequencer and p-locks is exciting.

I was a bit worried that the buttons would be too cramped but it is okay.
Awesome man! I’m happy for you :)
It’s simplicity was what immediately hit me, it’s very easy to get good sounds from. Enjoy mate!

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pdxindy
KVRAF
16318 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: IS FM synthesis your goto?

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:43 am

Zebra makes some of the most beautiful FM type sounds. I find it better sounding than most dedicated FM synths for the same sounds... something rich and appealing about the sound character (to me).

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pdxindy
KVRAF
16318 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: IS FM synthesis your goto?

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:45 am

simmo75 wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:42 am
pdxindy wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:15 am
simmo75 wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:15 pm
You won’t regret it! :)
When I travel I take it with me, you can get full pieces together on it and it’s built really well.
The Digitone arrive today. I'm happy with the sound after playing for an hour or two... including with all fx off. It has a sort of pleasing and warmish sound while still being FM. My initial impression is that it seems easy to get sounds I like. And of course all the possibilities with the sequencer and p-locks is exciting.

I was a bit worried that the buttons would be too cramped but it is okay.
Awesome man! I’m happy for you :)
It’s simplicity was what immediately hit me, it’s very easy to get good sounds from. Enjoy mate!
Thanks for the suggestion... it is a perfect size to fit in my carry on bag!

Have you tried Overbridge with it? Is 2.0 out yet? I haven't touched Overbridge in a long time. I have the A4 and Rytm (mkII's)

simmo75
KVRAF
1799 posts since 25 Mar, 2016 from Seattle

Re: IS FM synthesis your goto?

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:00 am

Thanks for the suggestion... it is a perfect size to fit in my carry on bag!

Have you tried Overbridge with it? Is 2.0 out yet? I haven't touched Overbridge in a long time. I have the A4 and Rytm (mkII's)
[/quote]

I have, it was updated over the weekend, it’s getting better... slowly!
I have my faith that they’ll get it right soon, it’s an awesome idea. I’d give it a go.

simmo75
KVRAF
1799 posts since 25 Mar, 2016 from Seattle

Re: IS FM synthesis your goto?

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:26 am

I have, it was updated over the weekend, it’s getting better... slowly!
I have my faith that they’ll get it right soon, it’s an awesome idea. I’d give it a go.

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pdxindy
KVRAF
16318 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: IS FM synthesis your goto?

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:18 am

Glad to hear it's getting better... I'll give it a try again. Thanks!

mholloway
KVRian
1243 posts since 11 Jan, 2009 from Portland, OR, USA

Re: IS FM synthesis your goto?

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:41 am

to answer the OP's question:
for my newish IDM project (see signature - TV HWY) FM synthesis is absolutely my go-to. FM8, Operator, Bazille... the subtractive synths are few and far between on my album, providing a bass here and there or a thick lead -- usually MS-20 legacy or LuSH-101. Having a balance of both is always nice, but for the crystal-clear / hi-fi / detail-oriented sound design and texture I like in IDM, FM synthesis is absolutely my weapon of choice.
https://tvhwy.bandcamp.com/releases - classic IDM by TV HWY
www.dwifh.com - old-school industrial music by DEAD WHEN I FOUND HER

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HTT
KVRist
67 posts since 14 Jul, 2019

Re: IS FM synthesis your goto?

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:52 pm

Many of the Yamaha synths used more than just sine waves: TX81z and beyond.

Zebra does wonderful fm. No wonder I love Zebra.

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Halonmusic
KVRAF
3300 posts since 13 Nov, 2015 from Norway

Re: IS FM synthesis your goto?

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:24 pm

For bass and keyboard-y sounds i like to use an FM synth such as Oxe FM or Dexed.
Don't be a Sheep. :borg: | Opinions matters :evil:

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Russell Grand
KVRAF
2392 posts since 22 May, 2017

Re: IS FM synthesis your goto?

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:02 pm

e-crooner wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:40 am
Halonmusic wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:30 am
e-crooner wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:34 pm
BONES wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:07 pm
Jesus H. Christ on a bike! That big fat pad that comes in at 1:07 you would swear was a V/A with tons of unison. It sounds very out of place with the rest of the piece, though. I had dismissed Digitone out of hand because it's an FM synth but since I've been getting into Aparillo, I may have to give it another look.
I don't hear anything new coming in at 1:07, so I am not sure which sound you mean, I don't hear any fat pad in that video, frankly.

Regarding the title, no, FM is my run-from :hihi:
You're clearly deaf then. :roll:
I don't think I am the only one...
Russell Grand wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:08 pm
e-crooner wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:34 pm
...I don't hear any fat pad in that video, frankly.
I'm pretty sure the boner is talking about the heavily-distorted pad that comes in around 1:02, not 1:07. But I have to agree. Fat pad? Meh...
You're definitely not, e-c.

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