[Intro pricing extended] Available now: T-RackS Sunset Sound Studio Reverb

[mcbpete]

Smoke and mirrors, hand waving, and vague statements have never gone over well with customers, in any product area. Be straight-forward and honest with customers, and they will return the favor (helping the company and its' products move forward).

As a customer and developer, that is the standard that I've come to know and respect.

Aye exactly - this is where things have gone very wonky over the launch over here

Peter - I'm not trying to perpetrate false claims at all and it seems quite rude for you to be suggesting that I am, I'm just trying to work out exactly what features it has or hasn't before I decide to purchase it. The fact this thread has hit 15 pages probably shows that this product really not been signalled clearly to us potential buyers. I've been a customer with IK for 6 years - I have the latest versions of Amplitube Max, T-Racks Max, Syntronik Deluxe, SampleMoog, SampleTron, Modo Bass - I'm not posting to cause trouble, just to elucidate facts before shelling out a not-unsubstantial amount of money !

[Squids]

Smoke and mirrors, hand waving, and vague statements have never gone over well with customers, in any product area. Be straight-forward and honest with customers, and they will return the favor (helping the company and its' products move forward).

As a customer and developer, that is the standard that I've come to know and respect.

Aye exactly - this is where things have gone very wonky over this launch over here

Peter - I'm not trying to perpetrate false claims at all and it seems quite rude for you to be suggesting that I am, I'm just trying to work out exactly what it has or hasn't before I purchase it. The fact this thread has hit 15 pages probably shows that it's really not been signalled clearly to us potential buyers. I've been a customer with IK for years - I have the latest versions of Amplitube Max, T-Racks Max, Syntronik Deluxe, SampleMoog, SampleTron, Modo Bass - I'm not posting to cause trouble, just to elucidate facts before shelling out a fairly substantial amount of money !

I think it's fair enough what you're saying. Just please understand that there's what's in the marketing materials publicly and there's what we may know on the inside and while some things can be said publicly, other things may be proprietary. I mean, even the exact techniques on how AmpliTube, T-RackS and Modo Bass were made aren't necessarily shared. But, some of the technology behind it plus the features they have plus how it sounds when you try it or get it or listen to the demos is what you've always had to go on to get those products. As it stands with this plug-in I would say this. There's IR involved but it's more than just that under the hood. But, it's not that there's necessarily some secret ingredient that's a game changer. The REAL difference is the cooperation with the studio, the back and forth, the additional modeling and everything done to get right which one could only do with the full partnership of the studio. For the amount of hours we've taken up at this studio it would cost a fortune for anyone else to be able to do it... and it wouldn't be allowed because this is the first time the studio is allowing it officially (any IR that are out there technically were done without permission).

I can see that you're serious and you use a lot of IK products (some of which I made with my sound development team at SR). I honestly think your best way to know if it's worth adding to your list of products from IK is to download the demo when it's available and hear it for yourself. Regardless of how it's doing what it's doing the end result is king. Don't you think? And I'm not saying that as any kind of "don't mind the man behind the curtain" sort of thing. There are things I know about it that I'm waiting to see if how it is in the final rev and then there are things I don't even know... just like I don't know exactly how all the other IK products are made either but I judge them on what they can do musically. I hope that'll work for you too because regardless of specs it is a really cool product and project! I've thoroughly enjoyed it.

[Obsolete236871]

There's IR involved but it's more than just that under the hood

Squids and Peter, could you please stop throwing smokescreens and just come 100% clean about this?

I stayed away from this discussion for some time to allow others to share their perspective and many fellow KVRians have come to the very same conclusions, the same conclusions that made you guys lobby for my removal and ban from this forum! This is telling of your business ethics!

The more you keep evading clear and precise user questions, the more you strengthen our perception that this is really nothing more than TWELVE impulse responses (+ maybe a few more for additional mic positions on one or two of the 12 selectable acoustic environments, but definitely not more than 20) packed into a shiny (graphics wise), but rather generic (parameter wise) convolution processor.

One developer here on KVR has coded a similar (in terms of basic functionality) convolution engine in less than one day (edit: 2 days in fact), it's freely available and less than 1mb in size. You expect users to download 1.5 gb in vein and additionally pay 250 bucks for that aversive user experience? Who needs 3D galleries on plugin interfaces? Do you expect users to pay extra for that? C'mon!

I said it to Squids / Dave earlier in private: you can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time. Your whole demeanor in this thread is detrimental to your company's public image. And Squids, as much as I like your anecdotes (even though I understand that you do employ them to manipulate users opinion by pushing their emotional buttons - classical scheme in marketing - trying the personal relational route when nothing else works convincingly), you have to come clean about the fact that you receive provisions from IKM. So stop pretending you were merely another neutral and independent bystander - you want to get your share of the product sales, hence you are so personally involved in trying to steer the wheel of public opinion in a favorably direction. I have no issue with you wanting to earn your share, if you were involved, but then you should not pretend to be independent!


Let me tell you how you could save your face and won't ruin your sales:

• admit that this product is based on a rather small collection of impulse responses
  instead of claiming some ominous hidden under the hood magic. We love audio plugins and DSP technology, but there is no such thing as magic here, it all boils down to generic DSP methodologies, that are widely used by thousands of audio developers

• Highlight the quality of the captured impulse responses as a selling point

• Highlight the fact that there are few quality impulse responses of such studio ambiences available on the market

• Reduce the price of the product to a reasonable amount

• Stay away from making vague or even outright incorrect claims about the underlying technology

• Explain in which way the supposed modelling of the preamps manifests in the plugin - I don't see any dedicated controls for that

• Stop charging for 3D galleries on GUIs, there is not sonic benefit for audio engineers in pictures

And please, we can google which legends have recorded in that studio, so you really don't need to present us those black and white retro photos in your desperate attempt Peter! Those photos are completely irrelevant, because they won't change the fact, that you WILL NOT get the sound of these classic records, just because you put this rather generic impulse response loader with it's static room ambiences captures on your DAWs channel. Believe it or not: you will not sound like Mick Jagger, Prince, The Beatles or Jimi Hendrix.

[Peter - IK Multimedia]

Exactly, if you aren't comfortable pre-ordering there will be a demo available upon release as Squids points out. We aren't going to pull back the curtain on every single piece of minutiae related to IK's process of making a product, no company does - unless they're making open source software or similar. I've already explained there are way more IR than the bad math that's been going around (not even bothering to repeat it as people may misread or find it searching and not understand there are so many more...) would try to indicate as well as the modeling.

By the way, those photos were provided by the owners of Sunset Sound who wanted us to show what kind of music was created in their studio. They're proud of those timeless artists who called Sunset Sound their home while recording such classics and we're proud to provide the only virtual version of their studio that they will officially put their name on. In that spirit, enjoy another and let us be proud of an excellent product that is fully backed by the people who provided an amazing space for everything from Walt Disney movie soundtracks to the Rolling f**king Stones:


Image courtesy of Sunset Sound Recorders

[digitalboytn]

• Stop charging for 3D galleries on GUIs, there is not sonic benefit for audio engineers in pictures

And please, we can google which legends have recorded in that studio, so you really don't need to present us those black and white retro photos in your desperate attempt Peter! Those photos are completely irrelevant, because they won't change the fact, that you WILL NOT get the sound of these classic records, just because you put this rather generic impulse response loader with it's static room ambiences captures on your DAWs channel. Believe it or not: you will not sound like Mick Jagger, Prince, The Beatles or Jimi Hendrix.

Man...you just burst my bubble....

I thought that if I used this new reverb,that fairy dust was going to be spread across all of my tracks...

I'll just have to go out and buy some posters and hang them on the walls like in the old days...

Retro

[Obsolete236871]

By the way, those photos were provided by the owners of Sunset Sound who wanted us to show what kind of music was created in their studio. They're proud of those timeless artists who called Sunset Sound their home while recording such classics and we're proud to provide the only virtual version of their studio that they will officially put their name

[Hink]

By the way, those photos were provided by the owners of Sunset Sound who wanted us to show what kind of music was created in their studio. They're proud of those timeless artists who called Sunset Sound their home while recording such classics and we're proud to provide the only virtual version of their studio that they will officially put their name

you've stated your points, you have repeated your points, they have addressed your points though you are not satisfied with the answers...I'm not going around in circles on this again while you continue to derail this into a bash ik thread.

You absolutely have the right to voice your opinions and concerns, but there does come a point where enough is enough. You apparently wont be buying the plugin and people here want to discuss the software...not how bad ik is. Time to move on please

[digitalboytn]

On a more technical note...

What is the installed size of the official Sunset Sound Studio reverb and of that installed size,what percentage is the IR's themselves and what percentage is the GUI with the gallery ?

Are the IR's stereo or mono and what are their specs ?

[Peter - IK Multimedia]

...

[Saukar30]

So with this being an in depth plugin as far as IRs & modeling, is the CPU usage simiylr to the tape machine collection?

[Squids]

So with this being an in depth plugin as far as IRs & modeling, is the CPU usage simiylr to the tape machine collection?

Hmm hard to say yet because I'm still using beta version and some things, most things that haven't already been mentioned, are really better to be discussed after the plug-in is at least finished let alone released. But, you're probably not too far off the mark with your logic on that.

[Hink]

temp lock because everyone has to get their last comment in and I'm not chasing any of them any more...it will be reopened when things cool off

[Hink]

back

[Squids]

Thanks Hink.

I know you guys want all kinds of answers and you'll get many of them with time, but, you might not get every answer you seek because not all aspect of how a product is made or what's done under the hood is explained publicly. This goes for many pro audio companies. I don't know every detail of every product I own. I only know what each company shares publicly. It's up to the company how much technical info they share about a product. We've already stretched the sharing of info beyond what has been publicly announced so Peter has to be careful since it's his job and while it isn't my job I still have to be careful not to cross that boundary too... in fact, even talking too much about what I have which is a beta version can be tricky because by the time the product is a release candidate things can change. I want to be accurate and avoid causing confusion.

I know the biggest request and criticisms on this are what it does beyond being a collection of IR and also the price. The price part is subjective... to some it's expensive and to others it's quite reasonable and affordable and it also depends on how you look at it or compare. I've offered some food for thought in terms of comparing this and that but really each person knows what they want, to what extent they want it (especially after hearing it or using it) and if they can afford it or not.

But, regarding the questions about the IR, the reason you're not getting more details in answer to your questions on that is not because of some "smoke and mirrors". From my end, I can tell you it's because of two distinct things. One is that I was there for part of the sessions and helped set this whole thing up but I don't know every detail. I do know that MANY IR were captured with lots of options of mics and mic placement and other things. I also know, because I was a big part of this, that instruments and vocals were also recorded in each of the rooms (both sounds and actual songs) and run through all of the studio's reverbs (which was difficult and time consuming to do since it's an active studio so we had to wait for openings in each room to capture everything). This was done for both internal testing and tweaking to understand the acoustic space and how it reacts to different instruments and voices as well as for content I'm using to make various demos at the same time... because they're either my songs or people I've worked with who have given permission to use the songs for demoing.

Then, the studio and top engineers who know the studio get the beta and we discuss it in context of actual sessions, not just in theory or from clinical tests which are also done. Overall, many time consuming things are done to perfect the science and art of it as a whole and that can only be done with deep cooperation of the studio... and we know that's never been done until now. All of this includes modeling of their equipment at the studio and also other things under the hood that I'm not privy to except that I'm hearing the desired result audibly and that, to me at least, is all that really matters. How it sounds in the end and how it compares to the real thing. I'm not a software developer. I'm a musician, engineer and producer so, for me, it's enough to use my ears and know that I like it and would use it. Sure, I'd like to know more details myself but I either don't always get those answers, don't understand them because I'm not a software developer or I do but if that info isn't presented officially in the marketing materials I'm not necessarily at liberty to share it.

However, I will try and see if I CAN share more info about what's going on under the hood. But, I'm not going to be "manipulated" into doing that because I'm accused of purposely holding back that info to fool anyone. That's offensive. So, please read what I'm saying. This is why you're getting the info you're getting right now. I'm only saying what I know and/or what I know I can say for now before it's even released. I'm sure this will change over time to at least a certain extent.

[Squids]

All right I had a brief chat with the developers about this without taking up too much of their time asking to share info that most companies don't feel they have to reveal publicly. There's a line and across this line you do not... (forgive my Big Lebowski references haha).

Okay, so I told you that I knew that many IR were captured and re-captured going back and forth with the studio. I was there for some of that but wasn't the one doing it (what I did was music and instrument/drum recording sessions and mix sessions there with the staff engineers which is for testing and demoing). But, I told you I wasn't exactly sure how many ended up being used. I did say I'd try to find out more and also see what would be okay for me to share publicly too (so I don't get slapped with a wet squid). I've got some news for you.

First, the exact number of IR used is still not final as it's not finished yet and refinements are continually being done. But, even when it IS finalized that doesn't mean this exact figure is going to be shared publicly... and, in all fairness, I don't see Waves sharing this info about the Abbey Road plug-ins either. However, I can see it's important to some of you to know that it's more than just 12 IR so the good news is that I can at least confirm that there ARE in fact many times more than this inside doing various things to give you more realism. But, that's all I can say about it. More detail about the features will be shared upon release and that will probably reassure some people that there is more going on than one might initially think. I'll leave it at that for now.

So, for all the many reasons explained here and in previous posts it should hopefully be easy enough to see that a lot has gone into it for it to be what it is and as a plug-in it definitely does have a lot more to offer than just a handful of IR obtained by people without the consent or cooperation of the studio.

Now back to work for me. I'll be sharing some audio demos very soon.