Improvements!

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karrikuh
KVRist
313 posts since 6 Apr, 2008

Post Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:50 am

Request for Zebra MSEG editor: when inserting breakpoint, shape of adjacent curve segments should be reset to straight line.
Currently, these segments keep the shape of the segment that has been split by the new BP, which is almost never what you want. In practice, if I insert a new BP, it's usually because I want to define a shape not well represented by the existing curve, and connecting these new BP by straight lines usually best reflects what I have in mind.
Would love to see it in Zebra 2 and 3!

User avatar
Urs
u-he
24307 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Improvements!

Post Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:07 am

In Zebra3, when you insert a point, the overall shape will not change at all. Proper spline cutting...

(when I wrote Z2, I used simplified spline-like formulae in order to save CPU when finding a new value for a sample. The shape sequencer in Hive is based on proper Bézier curves and needs next to no CPU on a modern machine, hence this is where we’ll go)

GRUMP
KVRist
179 posts since 11 Jun, 2019 from Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Improvements!

Post Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:19 am

Soft FM. Means: SLOWLY increasing FM when you increase the FM Amount Values (to colorize your Sine Wave).
Sound Design - VOX, Airy, Choir

User avatar
Howard
KVRAF
3868 posts since 23 May, 2004 from Bad Vilbel, Germany

Re: Improvements!

Post Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:09 am

GRUMP wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:19 am
Soft FM. Means: SLOWLY increasing FM when you increase the FM Amount Values (to colorize your Sine Wave).
I have no idea what you mean there, fellow Grump! The FM can be as subtle as you like.

GRUMP
KVRist
179 posts since 11 Jun, 2019 from Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Improvements!

Post Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:57 pm

Howard wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:09 am
GRUMP wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:19 am
Soft FM. Means: SLOWLY increasing FM when you increase the FM Amount Values (to colorize your Sine Wave).
I have no idea what you mean there, fellow Grump! The FM can be as subtle as you like.
OSC > FMO "by Input" - OSC Level = 2 (!) - OSC = +12 Semitones, FMO = 0 (1:2) > blend in FM Amount. Result: you "mix in" a "harsh FM Overtone Spectrum".

I compared ZEB with other Synths. Difference: the others "colorize" the Carrier first and then start to produce more "FM" (Harshness).

I really wonder why an OSC Level of 2 is soo strong already and why ZEB immediately produces. "harshness" and doesn´t "colorize".

Annotation: I like Sinewaves and my Target is Softness and Brilliance. Soft straight Pads.
No Problem with 2 other Synths - DUNE and DEXED - but not possible with ZEB´s FM. You might say "learn FM", but the Results of my simple Test are quiet clearly. No Colorization and mixed in "Harshness".

I had a wrong Impression of FM for some Time and I "fell off my Chair" when I immediately got pleasant Results with the mentioned Competitors :/

I dumped the Comparison File. Do you want to hear it? Or maybe Screenshots?

EDIT: I have found it in my Trashcan. Attached! 1: Zebra - 2: DUNE - 3: DEXED
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Sound Design - VOX, Airy, Choir

KBSoundSmith
KVRian
804 posts since 6 Jul, 2009

Re: Improvements!

Post Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:40 pm

GRUMP wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:57 pm
Howard wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:09 am
GRUMP wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:19 am
Soft FM. Means: SLOWLY increasing FM when you increase the FM Amount Values (to colorize your Sine Wave).
I have no idea what you mean there, fellow Grump! The FM can be as subtle as you like.
OSC > FMO "by Input" - OSC Level = 2 (!) - OSC = +12 Semitones, FMO = 0 (1:2) > blend in FM Amount. Result: you "mix in" a "harsh FM Overtone Spectrum".

I compared ZEB with other Synths. Difference: the others "colorize" the Carrier first and then start to produce more "FM" (Harshness).

I really wonder why an OSC Level of 2 is soo strong already and why ZEB immediately produces. "harshness" and doesn´t "colorize".

Annotation: I like Sinewaves and my Target is Softness and Brilliance. Soft straight Pads.
No Problem with 2 other Synths - DUNE and DEXED - but not possible with ZEB´s FM. You might say "learn FM", but the Results of my simple Test are quiet clearly. No Colorization and mixed in "Harshness".

I had a wrong Impression of FM for some Time and I "fell off my Chair" when I immediately got pleasant Results with the mentioned Competitors :/

I dumped the Comparison File. Do you want to hear it? Or maybe Screenshots?

EDIT: I have found it in my Trashcan. Attached! 1: Zebra - 2: DUNE - 3: DEXED
No disrespect, but from several of your posts in FM topics, I think you may have a little confusion about what is happening in an FM synth. Read through and try the following, maybe it will help you see how Zebra is handling things.

AMPLITUDE
The amplitude (Volume) of the Modulator is an important factor in the resulting spectrum of the Carrier. The greater the amplitude of the Modulator, the wider ranging and louder the resulting sidebands in the Carrier. Knowing this conceptually, we have to know that in Zebra there are multiple knobs which affect the amplitude that a Carrier receives from a Modulator.

Try this. Start from an Init patch, and setup FMO1 as the Modulator (higher in the Zebra lanes) and FMO2 as the Carrier (lower in the Zebra lanes). By default, the Volume knob of FMO1 will be set to 100, and the FM knob of FMO2 will be set to 0.

Now, set the FMO2 FM amount to 50. You will obviously hear that the timbre has changed. This is the obvious point to change the "FM Amount." But remember, "FM Amount" knob is saying this: "Receive X amount of amplitude from the Modulator." Well, you can ALSO change the amount of Amplitude sent from the Modulator itself -- from the Volume knob on FMO1.

Now go to FMO1 and move the Volume knob from its default position of 100 down to 10. Notice that the Timbre has again changed, as if the FM knob on FMO2 had been turned down. Now try adjusting the FM knob on FMO2 -- you'll notice the timbre can't get as extreme as before, when the FMO1 knob was at 100.

TL;DR If you want subtle results, keep the Volume knob of the Modulator low, to limit the effective range of the FM knob in the Carrier.

OPERATOR WAVEFORMS
The waveforms of both operators matter. If you use a default patch of Zebra, OSC1 has a sawtooth wave by default. FMO modules are Sine waves by default.

If you place FMO1 immediately after OSC1 and both are on default settings, you'll hear only the sine wave of the FMO module, since the FM knob is at zero. If you then move the FM knob to 10, you'll hear a high buzzing very quickly -- that is because the FMO1 Carrier is receiving a Sawtooth wave from the Modulator (OSC1). If you want "traditional" FM results, set OSC1 to be a sine wave (OR use an FMO module at its default settings, which again is a sine wave). Go to the OSC1 Tab, and choose Sine Tree from the Factory OSCs, and make sure the OSC1 Wave knob is set to 1 so you don't get unexpected results from having a sine wave set on an unexpected partial (in relation to where you set Tune on either operator).

TL;DR I imagine some of your displeasure may be from having complex waveforms (example, sawtooth waves) as one of the operators, rather than having all operators set to sine waves.

I could go on about other parameters, but I'm guessing what I wrote above might address the issues you seem to be having. If that doesn't clear it up, post a patch and I can take a look for you.

GRUMP
KVRist
179 posts since 11 Jun, 2019 from Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Improvements!

Post Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:07 am

KBSoundSmith wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:40 pm
GRUMP wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:57 pm
Howard wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:09 am
GRUMP wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:19 am
Soft FM. Means: SLOWLY increasing FM when you increase the FM Amount Values (to colorize your Sine Wave).
I have no idea what you mean there, fellow Grump! The FM can be as subtle as you like.
[...]

I could go on about other parameters, but I'm guessing what I wrote above might address the issues you seem to be having. If that doesn't clear it up, post a patch and I can take a look for you.

Ahm... thanks for your Patience and detailed Reply! I remember that I uses a Sine (SpectrBlend, 1st Harmonic - don´t waste FMOs) before, but for the Testfile I maybe forgot to change the OSC Settings. That may well be. The Difference between the Resluts is tooo big. We´ll see. But I have also never heard "soft FM" (Grump 2020) from Zebra in its Lifetime!

BTW - the Disappointment of the SY-Series Users about the Promises of complex Waveforms can still be heard loudly if you listen closely. After a little Excursion I decided to better leave this Room closed.
Sound Design - VOX, Airy, Choir

User avatar
Howard
KVRAF
3868 posts since 23 May, 2004 from Bad Vilbel, Germany

Re: Improvements!

Post Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:42 am

OK, now I get it. Use the FMO's Filtered FM mode. Quoting the Zebra manual…

TYPE (input mode)

FM by input: The FMO is modulated by its input, and the FM knob controls input level.

FM self (+): The FMO modulates itself for a brighter tone approaching a sawtooth. Note that FM values above 50% can produce some interesting digital noise.

RM input: The FMO is actually ring-modulated with its input. No FM here!

Filtered FM: Like FM by Input mode, except that the FM knob opens a lowpass filter instead of setting the input level (which is fixed at 100%). This results in a warmer tone.

FM self2 (+): Like FM Self (+) except that the input signal is the output squared. Great for triangular / squarish tones, including a pure ‘shark-fin’ wave when the FM depth is somewhere between 25 and 30.
Last edited by Howard on Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:38 am, edited 3 times in total.

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EvilDragon
KVRAF
19314 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Re: Improvements!

Post Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:01 am

That's filter FM though, not regular osc FM. Grump is talking about regular osc FM, I think.

User avatar
Howard
KVRAF
3868 posts since 23 May, 2004 from Bad Vilbel, Germany

Re: Improvements!

Post Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:22 am

I'm not talking about Filter FM, EvilDragon, but using the FMO's Filtered FM option instead of the default by Input.

User avatar
justin3am
KVRAF
10966 posts since 7 May, 2006 from Southern California

Re: Improvements!

Post Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:47 am

Yes, the Filtered FM mode is very different from modulating filter cutoff at audio rate. Imagine passing the modulator through a LPF before it hits the carrier's FM input, rather than using a VCA. It's a great way to tame complex modulation signals.
In Bazille, I frequently run modulators through filters befor hitting their targets, especially when using FM feedback.

GRUMP
KVRist
179 posts since 11 Jun, 2019 from Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Improvements!

Post Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:13 pm

EvilDragon wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:01 am
That's filter FM though, not regular osc FM. Grump is talking about regular osc FM, I think.
That´s true, but I was wrong anyway. Shame on me. Don´t want to tell much about the Misstake here, but ... I think I neglected Zeb for a too long Time. And I´m currently doing too many Things at the same Time. Despite of two little Daughters there are Skys full of Stars to discover :wink:

But Zeb still sounds quiet different... it´d be a strange Love Song ;-)

Thank you all. Respect.

The Grump
Sound Design - VOX, Airy, Choir

GRUMP
KVRist
179 posts since 11 Jun, 2019 from Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Improvements!

Post Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:13 pm

Howard wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:42 am
OK, now I get it. Use the FMO's Filtered FM mode. Quoting the Zebra manual…

TYPE (input mode)

FM by input: The FMO is modulated by its input, and the FM knob controls input level.

FM self (+): The FMO modulates itself for a brighter tone approaching a sawtooth. Note that FM values above 50% can produce some interesting digital noise.

RM input: The FMO is actually ring-modulated with its input. No FM here!

Filtered FM: Like FM by Input mode, except that the FM knob opens a lowpass filter instead of setting the input level (which is fixed at 100%). This results in a warmer tone.

FM self2 (+): Like FM Self (+) except that the input signal is the output squared. Great for triangular / squarish tones, including a pure ‘shark-fin’ wave when the FM depth is somewhere between 25 and 30.
Sry Howard, as already said :dog:
Sound Design - VOX, Airy, Choir

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
7715 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: Improvements!

Post Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:54 am

Coming from the Repro matrix wishlist thread, I'd like to add something I asked for there.

Since Repro only has 2 mod slots, it would be nice to have a switch in the tweaks page to route mpe timbre messages to the mod wheel modulations. Many mpe synths have this option and it makes sense since the Y axis expression functions like a polyphonic modwheel. Then at least you could use the mod wheel assignments polyphonically with a typical mpe setup (timbre = cc74).

It would mean an extra mpe modulation without changing the matrix (though I'm still in favor of at least doubling the matrix to 4 slots).

Thanks!
System: Windows 10, Dell XPS 2-in-1, Bitwig 3, Steinberg UR44.

Tony Ostinato
KVRian
1475 posts since 14 Jun, 2003

Re: Improvements!

Post Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:38 pm

i wish you could point at a different midi programs folder per instance. right now you get one midi programs folder that's shared by all instances and its very limiting for live use

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