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4damind wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:49 pm This grouping allows to edit different instances of the reverb (Breeze, B2, Aether) with one editor?


Correct - but only Breeze 2.5 and Precedence currently have this feature. Each instance can momentarily be used to control all other instances. The Breeze instances will however still keep their unique impulse responses and the other parameters that are affected by Precedence. The Precedence instances will keep their individual distance and angle values.

If I understand this correctly, this "link" between Breeze and Presedence will internally "synchronize" the pre-delay, so that the reverb and the width/depth created with Precedence work correctly?


Not just the pre-delay - also the wet-dry amount and more. A new unique impulse response will be generated in real-time with each parameter change. That goes for all parameters within Breeze as well which affect the reverb directly.
That's why both Precedence and Breeze are not really meant to be automated.

(I think they should still allow this though instead of patronizing the user by preventing it :roll:)

To be honest, I have tested some of these spatiality plugins in the past, and the results have been terrible, that's why I'm a bit biased about that...

I think I know where you are coming from here - it was the same for me. Breeze is really very different though. It's not trying to impress you using cheap tricks.

In my opinion the Precedence/Breeze combo is miles ahead of everything else.

With one instance of Precedence you can control the distance and position in the stereo field for every instance that is used in the project.

And once B2 and Aether will get updated and thus become part of this eco-system, it will even become much more powerful.
"Preamps have literally one job: when you turn up the gain, it gets louder." Jamcat, talking about presmp-emulation plugins.

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can't wait for Aether and B2 updates :)
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4damind wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:49 pm
To be honest, I have tested some of these spatiality plugins in the past, and the results have been terrible, that's why I'm a bit biased about that...
The general issue you probably encountered is HRTF's basically don't work over speakers, and just add a bunch of annoying comb filtering that sounds pretty bad when feed into reverb as would inevitably happen if any verb plugin follows a HRTF plug either on track or send... i.e. it colors the tail. (not completely unlike Breeze's special FX "Colored" modes -- but likely more "harmonic" = "metallic" bc the resulting FIR is more like a simply comb filter).

Precedence avoids those issues... It has no comb filtering... (unless you collapse to mono, and even then care has been taken to minimize it as much as possible -- esp with the Mu and Omega modes) Precedence does not utilize HRTF directly... It is exceptionally clean. :tu:

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jens wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:25 pm That's why both Precedence and Breeze are not really meant to be automated.

(I think they should still allow this though instead of patronizing the user by preventing it :roll:)

:wink: It's probably a can of worms to expose those parameters to host automation. Maybe eventually.

And eventually when everyone has 100-core CPUs (which is closer than you might think it seems) we might be able to make the whole system perfectly smooth for automation... That's prob like a 3.0/4.0 or something though...
jens wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:25 pm In my opinion the Precedence/Breeze combo is miles ahead of everything else.
Thanks for the compliments. I tend to agree for acoustic/real instruments/voice etc. I think it is likely the most powerful thing on the market for these applications.

And very powerful for synth-oriented material as well -- just not quite as many rules there so judging "good"/"best" there is a bit harder as it is subjective...
jens wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:25 pm And once B2 and Aether will get updated and thus become part of this eco-system, it will even become much more powerful.
true... :tu:

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Ploki wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:25 pm can't wait for Aether and B2 updates :)
at least one of them this year we hope... (and other stuff). :tu:

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Andrew Souter wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:39 pm
Ploki wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:25 pm can't wait for Aether and B2 updates :)
at least one of them this year we hope... (and other stuff). :tu:
Can't decide whether to root for Aether or B2... :lol:
i'll go with Aether :D
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Andrew Souter wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:27 pm
4damind wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:49 pm
To be honest, I have tested some of these spatiality plugins in the past, and the results have been terrible, that's why I'm a bit biased about that...
The general issue you probably encountered is HRTF's basically don't work over speakers, and just add a bunch of annoying comb filtering that sounds pretty bad when feed into reverb as would inevitably happen if any verb plugin follows a HRTF plug either on track or send... i.e. it colors the tail. (not completely unlike Breeze's special FX "Colored" modes -- but likely more "harmonic" = "metallic" bc the resulting FIR is more like a simply comb filter).

Precedence avoids those issues... It has no comb filtering... (unless you collapse to mono, and even then care has been taken to minimize it as much as possible -- esp with the Mu and Omega modes) Precedence does not utilize HRTF directly... It is exceptionally clean. :tu:
Yes, it was a very strange sound with some of these "3D" plugins. A kind of comb filtering but also under headphones a clearly pressureless sound where you always had the feeling that something was completely wrong. The often praised location of sound sources was also rather bad. All in all something I never wanted to use for my music and only saw a purpose in computer games.
Therefore a certain skepticism with everything that has to do with "3D audio" or artificial spatiality ;)

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We could still use an easier way to "link" the Precedence and Breeze instances. especially when both are on the same track. I can't copy/paste in Reaper - so I have to manually type (without errors) the names for each one.

There was a mention about automatically picking up the DAW track name - that would be *very* handy! ;)
John Braner
http://johnbraner.bandcamp.com
http://www.soundclick.com/johnbraner
and all the major streaming/download sites.

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jbraner wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:33 pm We could still use an easier way to "link" the Precedence and Breeze instances. especially when both are on the same track. I can't copy/paste in Reaper - so I have to manually type (without errors) the names for each one.

There was a mention about automatically picking up the DAW track name - that would be *very* handy! ;)

THIS. Probably my only real gripe using this combination.

It's also really hard to click on the desired instrument you wish to within the Precendence window if you have a bunch of instruments occupying the same distance and angle. They just kinda sit on top of each other and accurately clicking the right one is really difficult.

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Melvin J. wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:50 pm
jbraner wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:33 pm We could still use an easier way to "link" the Precedence and Breeze instances. especially when both are on the same track. I can't copy/paste in Reaper - so I have to manually type (without errors) the names for each one.

There was a mention about automatically picking up the DAW track name - that would be *very* handy! ;)

THIS. Probably my only real gripe using this combination.

It's also really hard to click on the desired instrument you wish to within the Precendence window if you have a bunch of instruments occupying the same distance and angle. They just kinda sit on top of each other and accurately clicking the right one is really difficult.
If you have the latest version then you should be able to click on the tiny arrow at the bottom of the gui, It will then give you a list of the grouped instances to select from.

My image has a little arrow pointing to the place you need to click 8)
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Synth Presets and Music
https://linktr.ee/BoBSwanS

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jbraner wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:33 pm We could still use an easier way to "link" the Precedence and Breeze instances. especially when both are on the same track. I can't copy/paste in Reaper - so I have to manually type (without errors) the names for each one.

There was a mention about automatically picking up the DAW track name - that would be *very* handy! ;)

We definitely want to do that. It requires to use VST-3 though. On the task list. :tu:

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Andrew Souter wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:21 pm


We definitely want to do that. It requires to use VST-3 though. On the task list. :tu:
should already work via AUv3, no?
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Melvin J. wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:50 pm
jbraner wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:33 pm We could still use an easier way to "link" the Precedence and Breeze instances. especially when both are on the same track. I can't copy/paste in Reaper - so I have to manually type (without errors) the names for each one.

There was a mention about automatically picking up the DAW track name - that would be *very* handy! ;)

 

THIS. Probably my only real gripe using this combination.

It's also really hard to click on the desired instrument you wish to within the Precendence window if you have a bunch of instruments occupying the same distance and angle. They just kinda sit on top of each other and accurately clicking the right one is really difficult.

 

You can change instance selection in two other ways:

1) Page-Up, Page-Down key commands (as long as the host does not block it)

2) Change the Nav Bar to show Instance instance of Preset, and then use the <> buttons or the menu.

These are very convenient during the setup phase....

but, yes, we definitely want to be able to read host track names and auto-populate instance names. :tu:

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Ploki wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:37 pm
Andrew Souter wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:21 pm
We definitely want to do that. It requires to use VST-3 though. On the task list. :tu:
should already work via AUv3, no?
Yes... if you are using OSX and an AU host obviously... It's possible with AAX also. And VST-3 as I said. VST-2 is the only one where it is not possible AFAIK...

anyway, we agree 100% that the name setup stage is not quite so fun and we want to make it automatic ASAP.

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Andrew Souter wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:52 pm
Ploki wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:37 pm
Andrew Souter wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:21 pm
We definitely want to do that. It requires to use VST-3 though. On the task list. :tu:
should already work via AUv3, no?
Yes... if you are using OSX and an AU host obviously... It's possible with AAX also. And VST-3 as I said. VST-2 is the only one where it is not possible AFAIK...

anyway, we agree 100% that the name setup stage is not quite so fun and we want to make it automatic ASAP.
Even if you could automatically pick the Precedence/Breeze instance on the same track - and offer to "link". Even if the name is "ID_01", but you're linked - that would be a help. (you could always break the link if you realise you've accidentally linked to the wrong instance)
Then, once you're linked - if you could change the name in, say, Precedence, and it automatically updated the name in Breeze (or vice versa) - that would be super helpful.
As it is now, I find it to be a real pain to run Precedence/Breeze on every track - and keep threatening (all in my own head) to just run Breeze on a buss - and point all the Precedence (on each track) instances to it.
That would be *so* much easier - and it's the way we used to do it ;)

I'm not trying to be negative - but we're not quite there yet ;)
John Braner
http://johnbraner.bandcamp.com
http://www.soundclick.com/johnbraner
and all the major streaming/download sites.

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