[Intro pricing extended] Available now: T-RackS Sunset Sound Studio Reverb

[mcbpete]

experienced engineers

Had a very similar thought this morning - The mixing engineers and mastering engineers back then were exactly that: experienced engineers. If they ended up doing stuff just by the 'feeling' of it rather than actual analysis they'd probably have got fired by the end of the month!

[Squids]

If you and Peter had just openly said "the tech isn't special, it's the licensing and exclusivity" that would be fine, but instead you have hidden behind vague claims, speculation and long-winded posts that make the thread difficult to navigate. So we investigate by ourselves.

Really? How many times do we have to say that there IS more to the tech involved that IS "special"? It's not THAT much of a stretch to imagine that a company known for physical modeling mixing consoles and outboard gear (over 40 plug-ins in the T-Racks range alone let alone the official Fender, Leslie, Ampeg and more in AmpliTube) might just include some of that as well as other techniques in development in a plug-in that aren't always shared publicly by companies (this expectation is ludicrous).

I know some of you get hung up on these things and insist you know better than everyone else what is what. We don't always get to know exactly every detail of what's in a product and how it's made. But, there IS enough info to go on to come to a different conclusion even just from the product description.

Not that I think it's really worth too many people's time on the analytical side vs. just trying it and listening to it to determine if they like it (which should be the only thing that matters), I did talk to one of the developers about it to learn more myself. The thing is, almost any reverb would look like this on a spectrograph, good sounding ones or bad sounding ones, your graphic representation was only a very basic look that doesn’t tell much about the reverb's sound, its quality, the naturalness, its musicality and so on. Even reverbs with artificial delay-lines modulation (like the classic Lexicon Halls for example) can look like this in a static shot.

That said, if one is gonna be getting into graphs, an interesting one to see is an FFT harmonic plot from the wet path of Sunset Sound Studio Reverb, send a sine to the reverbs and see what you get back. This will show harmonics, something that is not doable with convolution alone, and it’s an important part of the Sunset Sound Studio Reverb's recreation of how the ambiences sound at the studio.

The bottom line is that it's the combination of everything, some of which IS special and proprietary to how IK does things vs. other companies (and more importantly the sound of this specific studio which is going to be different to begin with). And, in any case, for anyone open minded and aware of any possibility of flaws in their thinking, what Bruce said is a good tip. Don't get hung up on graphs essentially. Audio engineering is about hearing it more than seeing it. I'm not too proud to listen to him.

[Squids]

I think it's a great lesson and reminder for you, for me or anyone reading that. We all get a bit technical and try to play audio sleuth sometimes. But, what's the point? It really only has any use if it's making your music and mixes sound great. Is it? If so, we should share our music and mixes so that others can understand how our theories about this stuff makes music and mixes sound better. That brings substance to an argument. Otherwise it's just talk and I love the perspective of these seasoned audio guys who have made tons of albums... I mean, I don't know if anyone on the planet has mastered as many albums as Bernie Grundman! Maybe Bob Ludwig. But, I bet he'd say some of the same things. They just point blank tell you what's up and I appreciate it. We can learn from them.

Much respect to you and the experienced engineers you are bringing up, but I think you are downplaying the technical expertise involved in what they do. The recording engineers at Abbey Road wore lab coats, and in their sessions with musicians like The Beatles it was the push and pull between the artists and the engineers that propelled the art/science of recording to new and exciting places.

Regarding my criticism of the Sunset Sound Reverb for not providing IRs captured with the speaker in different locations in the live rooms, here is an excerpt from a recording I did of a flute and guitar duet. The flute player was to the left and the guitarist to the right. These are only the spot mics, a 4038 positioned over the shoulder of the flutist to minimize bleed and the mid channel (M150) of an M/S configuration on the guitar. The spot mics are mono of course, so they are panned to approximate the position of the musicians.

Here is the dry signal:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/86s ... 20room.wav

Here is the stereo convolution with a live room IR from a single speaker in a center position:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/kfy ... 20room.wav

And here is the stereo convolution of the flute with an IR captured from a speaker in a left position of the room and the guitar with an IR from a speaker in the right position:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/ovv ... 20room.wav

To me the different speaker positions result in a much more natural and realistic sound. The single position makes my body tense up. I would have liked to have been able to do such positioning with the IRs of the live rooms in SSSD, and provide these examples not to debate but to perhaps encourage IK to make a Version 2 that would include more speaker positions. Just Left Center Right would be great, but close and far as well would be even more awesome!

Thanks for this great post. I agree with a lot of what you're saying and maybe there can be future updates that can incorporate more options for the rooms. I'm totally into that. But, the approach to this plug-in was to go for more of a variety of different types of ambiences in the studio such as the combination of live rooms, iso booths, echo chambers, plates and a spring all in one plug-in at a certain value. Other companies have made dedicated plug-ins to each of them at retail prices that are the same as this one (despite what crazy sales they sometimes do). It's just a different focus at a certain value. But, since the plug-in seems to be quite successful right out of the gate, this is a good sign toward more development in this area and certainly the ideas you're talking about are worthwhile. It may not be necessary to get great use out of it because that can be done as is but more options, especially ones that make a lot of sense, are welcome as far as I'm concerned.

As for engineers at Abbey Road, yes they had to wear lab coats. The science of audio engineering has always been a part of it BUT I think a lot changed since the time of The Beatles and The Beach Boys and rock music vs. say classical at a studio like Abbey Road. There was more experimentation and even breaking the rules and using your ears. I was fortunate to work with a few engineers who recorded The Beatles. Ken Scott and Alan Parsons (and I got to talk to others as well). It's very interesting to get their perspective and I wouldn't be surprised if they said very similar things as Bruce did. In fact, they all teach engineering so I bet they say all kinds of "slap in the face back to reality" comments for people who get lost in the science of it and aren't tuning into the musicality more. Ken Scott made some amazing sounding albums. Besides recording The Beatles he did one of my favorites "Crime of the Century" by Supertramp. Alan Parsons recorded, among many other things, "Dark Side of the Moon" by Pink Floyd. These two albums sound better than most albums today. I listen to the things they say even if it goes against my own logic or what I've learned.

For example, when I studied audio engineering myself, I learned that drums are best captured with condenser mics at a distance because they are more sensitive to SPL and dynamics are better for close miking because they can handle it. So, like many engineers, I used something like a 57 or MD421 as direct mic and Neumanns or AKGs as overheads and rooms. Nothing wrong with that. Sounds good! But, someone like Ken or Alan uses Ribbon pics as overheads and expensive condensers that you'd really worry about on the snare and all of the toms! If an audio scientist came along to say "you can't do that you can't it says here..." they'd get smacked and thrown out of the studio. (not literally of course).

[Squids]

I'm shocked by how many people have apparently been "blown away" by this normal application of a well-established technology. I was also very impressed when I first used Space Designer in about 2008. In 2020: "ah yes, that is a pleasant and convincing mic-in-room sound as expected".

I'd really like to hear their music and hear your music and/or mixes. It would seem to me that what type of technology it is perhaps is your audio blind spot. I'll give you an example of something in my area of expertise. I've done sampling since the early days of sampling and I've developed sounds for almost all of the major keyboard manufacturers and software samplers. I've made sounds and libraries that are simple or complex in their specs. I make music with these products myself as well as do my own custom sampling for my productions (where the samples are not released commercially). I'm happy that I CAN be "blown away" even by just ONE snare hit at one velocity. That could be useful for drum replacement or blending with a live snare for example. I'd never blow it off just because it's not some spec I need it to be. It could even be an 8 bit sample! IF IT SOUNDS GREAT AND FITS THE MUSIC then that is the absolute most important thing. The listener doesn't know all of these details about Space Designer and what it did in 2008. Who gives a flying FFFFKKKKK!!! Haha.

Ok, whatever. Time to get back to music making. I actually enjoy this discussion to some extent and it's also just futile at the same time. Like, I'd wish for someone like you to be able to at least imagine being "blown away" by a plug-in regardless of the technology. I mean, even if we were talking about only an IR in Altiverb, that particular IR could potentially blow someone away when actually used on music and it sounding great. I love my Altiverb! How great it sounds depends on the IR I'm using. But, with SSSR it depends on that plus other things because it's a dedicated plug-in with a specific task to achieve. All one has to do is listen to it in the right musical context to hear what magic it does (however it does it)!

Of course, it IS subjective so one man's gold is another man's "whatever". I don't expect you to be convinced. But, if I could hear your music or mixes I would know if at least I thought you were missing out. I heard the music of one guy (one of the banned) and it was mostly electronic. Didn't sound bad but I'd wonder how much SSSR would make a difference in that musical context anyway. But, when I ask to hear someone's music I don't mean it as a contest or anything like that. We're all here because we love music making (I think?) and when people make big claims, if we can hear what they're talking about we can understand and respect them more. In my book, no one has to be "famous" to get that respect. But, the proof IS in the pudding as they say. Ideally one's music should sound so good that even the famous engineers would agree "wow he has a point. that DOES sound better". If they are open minded too.

[Bombadil]

It's very easy to dial in a nice sound with this plugin. That is a feature I like. It isn't as CPU intensive as Waves Abbey Road Chambers and Plates (would've been nice to have their live rooms, though). I basically am an old-school rocker, everything from the Beatles to Stones to Hendrix to Floyd to Genesis (do you really know Steve Hackett? He's one of my favourite guitarists!), so this plugin is a good fit for me.

[Squids]

It's very easy to dial in a nice sound with this plugin. That is a feature I like. It isn't as CPU intensive as Waves Abbey Road Chambers and Plates (would've been nice to have their live rooms, though). I basically am an old-school rocker, everything from the Beatles to Stones to Hendrix to Floyd to Genesis (do you really know Steve Hackett? He's one of my favourite guitarists!), so this plugin is a good fit for me.

Yes. I work with Steve Hackett a lot. I got to play the keyboard solo on Supper's Ready for his Genesis Revisited 2 album and he's guested on many of my songs which you can hear if you look up "Dave Kerzner" or my band "In Continuum" which you might like. I also have a band with Phil Collins' son called "Sound of Contact" so if you're into Genesis, that may be something of interest. I co-produced the album we did called "Dimensionaut" and Genesis' engineer/producer Nick Davis mixed it.



and here's one of my tunes with Steve joining me along with Durga McBroom from Pink Floyd (and Tom Lord-Alge mixed this song with me):



Nick Davis is another person I've learned a lot from as well as Hugh Padgham. Their recording techniques all vary and to me it's fascinating. Btw, I sampled drums at Genesis' studio which has a very unique sounding "stone live room" that I'd love to do as a plug-in. I would have loved to have had The Townhouse where Peter Gabriel's 3rd album and Phil's "In The Air Tonight" was recorded (as well as many other great sounding albums) but sadly that's no longer around. But, the Genesis' studio live room was modeled after The Townhouse (you can really hear its qualities on the album Abacab where it's more raw drums with compressed rooms).

I also help Phil, Mike and Tony with their studio and live rigs... and they use a lot of IK Multimedia products as well as Sonic Reality sounds. I'm actually putting together a Nick Davis Farm Sessions collection for SampleTank 4 this year. I did it awhile ago but just haven't had enough time to dedicate to sample libraries as I'd like to. But, it's really cool. We sampled a variety of Gretsch, Premier, Pearl kits (including one that belonged to Phil in the early 80s) in that stone room plus we sampled Mike's double neck bass/12 strings and almost all of Tony Banks' keyboards.

[vurt]

pfft. i was once in a lift with a guy who looked like phil collins.

[Squids]

pfft. i was once in a lift with a guy who looked like phil collins.

Maybe it was him! haha

[Bombadil]

Cool track, Dave. My only criticism is that your hair isn't NASA regulation. That sounds very post-Waters Pink Floyd-ish.
If you see Peter Gabriel anytime, please ask him to hurry up and finish his next album. Up was what, 2002? I subscribe to Steve's and Pete's FB pages. Shame about Phil's back. Hope he's given up the booze.

[Squids]

Cool track, Dave. My only criticism is that your hair isn't NASA regulation. That sounds very post-Waters Pink Floyd-ish.
If you see Peter Gabriel anytime, please ask him to hurry up and finish his next album. Up was what, 2002? I subscribe to Steve's and Pete's FB pages. Shame about Phil's back. Hope he's given up the booze.

That's a fair criticism. I deleted my 4 page response about why I grew my hair out and how I justify my rock n' roll astronaut look. Haha. [I know my posts are long... I'd say people have to either embrace it, forgive it or ignore it because that's just how I am]

PG sure does take his time doesn't he? Hackett on the other hand is quite prolific and it's truly incredible the amount of touring he does. I'm actually working with Tony Banks and his tech Geoff on something but I can't say what it is yet.

[vurt]

pfft. i was once in a lift with a guy who looked like phil collins.

Maybe it was him! haha

not prog related but...
a while back, i was sat on a bus, near the front.
a woman got on, and tbf she really did, and i heard the driver loudly remark "bloody hell, its iggy pop!"

which in itself, was bad enough (although funny to me) when she said "how dare you! such a rude thing to say to a woman..."
it got so much worse when he replied, and seemed to realise and try to stop himself but couldnt "sorry, i didnt realise you where a woman..."

[Peter - IK Multimedia]

I freaking LOVE "Stranded". That whole album is fanstastic. Dave, you might remember my statement where I grudgingly had to admit it was better than the release from one of my top three bands of all time (and quite a known band, not some random indie band) that came out in the same time frame. It doesn't hurt that I was already a huge TLA fan so the mixes were definitely right up my alley, but that doesn't take away from the general impact of that song and album. Well done (again).

And definitely push PG. I've been waiting for a long while too. I'm sure Bombadil and I, with your help, can tip the scales...

[vurt]

i did also recently hear a woman from the back of the bus say "nooo dave im not gerrin ma tits out ont bus" then start laughing.
not music related sorry, but still amusing.

[Squids]

pfft. i was once in a lift with a guy who looked like phil collins.

Maybe it was him! haha

not prog related but...
a while back, i was sat on a bus, near the front.
a woman got on, and tbf she really did, and i heard the driver loudly remark "bloody hell, its iggy pop!"

which in itself, was bad enough (although funny to me) when she said "how dare you! such a rude thing to say to a woman..."
it got so much worse when he replied, and seemed to realise and try to stop himself but couldnt "sorry, i didnt realise you where a woman..."

That story is hilarious!!!! Poor woman! Haha.

I work with a great guitar player named Francis Dunnery who had a band called It Bites and he also played guitar with Robert Plant. He's a real prankster and got fired several times from their tour (and re-hired once they got over it) for doing things like: Robert wanting to leave after the show discretely sneaking out and Francis went into his limo ahead of time and put a sign on the back window saying "Robert Plant's Limo". But, the other one was when Robert apparently had to take a regular plane (not the uh Led Zeppelin plane haha) and he didn't want to be recognized so Francis got on the loudspeaker and said "I just want to announce that Robert Plant of Led Zeppelin is on the plane". But, it was the real Robert Plant at least and not a woman who looked like him. He wasn't too happy about it though!

[Squids]

I freaking LOVE "Stranded". That whole album is fanstastic. Dave, you might remember my statement where I grudgingly had to admit it was better than the release from one of my top three bands of all time (and quite a known band, not some random indie band) that came out in the same time frame. It doesn't hurt that I was already a huge TLA fan so the mixes were definitely right up my alley, but that doesn't take away from the general impact of that song and album. Well done (again).

And definitely push PG. I've been waiting for a long while too. I'm sure Bombadil and I, with your help, can tip the scales...

Well thanks Peter. I don't remember you saying that but it's quite a compliment. I've read a few things in reviews that I could be proud of, even if it's a niche Progrock genre world that the rest of the world doesn't even know still exists! Haha. But, I have no ego about that stuff and I'm always just learning. Some songs and mixes sound better than others and yes it sure helps if TLA is involved. But, to me it's always a work in progress and I'm always interested in ways to make songs sound better.

Speaking of that, and I expect some people to cry the words "marketing talk" but I don't care because what I'm saying is genuine and easily understandable. There IS something else about SSSR that I noticed that I think is the most important thing about it. In my opinion it makes all other comments about the technology or comparisons to other plug-ins and their technology irrelevant for the most part. Whatever it's doing and however it's doing it the SOUND of the plug-in, at least as I've heard on my music, I've noticed is way more important than I thought it would be. People often think of vintage EQ, tube compressors and limiters and certain popular buss compressors or mastering effects as the "glue" to a song. It is! But, reverb is also something that glues it together as well (putting it in a same space sometimes but also more than that... beyond what would happen in physical reality with just musicians in a room - the bigger than life production thing I'm talking about). Putting SSSR chambers, plates and rooms in a mix gives it a very pleasing musical quality that, to me, ties the whole room together (Big Lebowski ref for ya Donny).

Seriously, it does something that's hard to explain without using words like "mojo" or "vibe" or "air" or "depth". It's kind of a magic tool. But, I guess that'll only be discovered by those who would know it when they heard it and, of course, if it's in a musical context where it would make a difference. Since I do Classic Rock and Progrock as well as more acoustic folk and eclectic music (often with real live players as opposed to sequenced parts... even though I'm mainly a keyboard player), this plug-in really comes through for me and I expect to be using it a lot. I have a feeling a lot of rock musicians and engineer/producers who work in that genre will feel the same way about it.